4D Human Being Podcast | Live and Lead with Impact

Change 3: Edge Behaviour: Get Curious, Not Critical, Because It's Contagious

• 4D Human Being

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 42:06

The biggest barrier to change isn't the change itself, it's what happens in your head the moment it arrives.

In this episode of the 4D Human Being podcast, Phil and Pen reveal the hidden behaviours that keep us stuck at the edge of change and give you a practical roadmap to move through them with confidence.

Whether you're leading a team through transformation or navigating uncertainty in your own life, this episode will help you spot the subtle signs of resistance in yourself and others, understand why they happen, and crucially, what to do about them.

Phil and Pen walk you through five powerful steps:

  • Recognise your edge behaviour — procrastination, over-controlling, humour, sarcasm... it shows up in more ways than you think
  • Name your triggers — get curious, not critical, because awareness is where choice begins
  • Get over the edge — discover what helps you and others take that first step forward
  • Do the inside job — don't wait for the system to regulate you, get yourself stable first
  • Switch to the possibility mindset — ask what's possible, not what's wrong

Change isn't slowing down. The leaders and humans who thrive aren't the ones who fight it or surrender to it. They're the ones who learn to move with it.

Listen to this episode and leave with one simple practice: Stop. Breathe. Name what's happening. Then ask what can we actually do here?

Resources

Want to a FREE taste of 4D OnDemand?

Sign up for your 4D OnDemand membership today: https://www.4dhumanbeing.com/4d-ondemand/

Follow us:

📱 Instagram: @4dhumanbeing
📱 TikTok: @4dhumanbeing
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/4dhumanbeing
🎥 YouTube: @4DHumanBeing

Subscribe now and elevate your performance!


Our team of 4D coaches and facilitators combine the knowledge, expertise and talents of entrepreneurs, business leaders, psychologists and actors to offer a unique suite of communication, leadership and wellbeing programmes to help you and your organisation choose your impact.


Our approach looks at our development in all 4 of our dimensions: physical, emotional, intellectual and intentional. Taking you from being a 3D Human Doing, to a 4D Human Being.


The concept of Edge Behaviour was pioneered by Arnold Mindell (Process Oriented Psychology), adapted for teams by Faith Fuller and Marita Fridjhon (CRR Global/ORSC), and further developed for organizational practice by Frode Svensen and Lori Shook in Team Up.


Welcome And 4D Approach

SPEAKER_01

Hello, my name's Philip Waller. My name is Penelope Waller, and we are two of the directors at 4D Human Being. And welcome to the 4D Human Being podcast. What's it all about, Pen? It's all about your personal and professional relationships, it's about your communication skills, how you lead, how you work and build teams, how you are looking after yourself and your well-being, and how you are much more at choice. What do we mean by that? Well, sometimes we can get a little caught in patents in life, and we can all be a little bit on our automatic pilot. So 40 human being is all about helping us get back to choice and being a four-dimensional human being, and your fourth dimension, of course, is intention. So whether it's about your impact, your leadership style, your team dynamics, whether it's about your well-being, whether it's about your communication or your presentation skills. Anything that involves human beings interacting with other human beings, 4D Human Being are here to help. We're gonna take a deep dive and look at some tools, insights, theories that are gonna help you go from a 3D human doing to a 4D human being so that you can happen to the world rather than the world simply happening to you. Good morning. That was a technical sweating. How relevant to what we're about to talk about. I mean, we could literally just thread that last 15 minutes into the whole podcast. So hello, welcome to our Leading Through Change series. Yes. And there's a change in the air, Phil. Super Segway. I mean that where we are, there's a change in the air. We've had to open the door of my office because I'm so in the habit of putting the heater on before I come in here. Yeah. I've had it on for an hour this morning and it's now like a sauna in here. I mean, it looks like a sauna and it feels like a sauna. We're not clothed for a sauna, huh? Well, luckily I've got my t-shirt on, Phil. Trust the universe. I'm not sure you were fully embodying that. No, I wears the. Although you were very calm, probably. When the tech stuff was you were very calm. So this episode, so I'm gonna do a quick callback to the previous episode. So our first episode of Leading Through Change was about resilience and the importance of resilience, what that actually means. If you haven't listened to that, do go back and listen to that. I like to think of bamboo kind of swaying. Yes, it's the tree, it's the flex. It's resilience, as you said in the episode, is so often you know, these words like authenticity, resilience that we we use so much start to get so stretched that we stop knowing what they really mean. So really useful to go back to that. This episode is around edge behaviours, what happens when we're faced with uncertainty or change, how we can recognize our mindset and our behaviours in those moments, and how we can get over the edge and step into change with a very different mindset, and of course, lead others through that. And then the final episode in two weeks' time will be around adaptability, the improvisation mindset and actions. Like what can we actually do? Yes. So today we're going to look at what are edge behaviours, can we recognise the triggers when we're at the edge? How do we get over the edge? A quick revisit of the internal piece, looking at blaming the outside system versus getting ourselves stable. When the outside system's not stable through change, can we get ourselves stable? That's the fourth piece. And then the fifth piece, which really bridges from that, is the possibility mindset and how we can switch, we love, and how often we don't even realise we've gone the other way. Do you know what I about that last one, Phil? Is I think sometimes we can we can think, oh, you know, sort of I've sort of got to be happy and I've got to think things are amazing, even when they don't feel like that. And yes, we don't want to push too far into that, but you know what I really know through this work, because I've lived it, is how you're shaping your experience of life by how you frame things. Oh, and I mean, you know, and I go back to the fra one of the phrases I love, you know, I think this is a Michelle Obama as well, you know, every day you practice who you become. It's definitely not, we'll get to that when we get there, but it's definitely not about the mask sort of pop the grin, you know. Everything's foiled! I think Matt, our fabulous colleague, men said something like the permanent grin where it's not it's really it's paper thin. The paper thin grin. There we go. So let's go through it because I already want to jump to the end and the possibility mindset, because that's the really fun bit, isn't it? I do like edge though. I tell you what, when I first got introduced to the edge model, I'm just watching your dog in my beautiful flower bed. Watch my hellebores, Humphrey. Um I'm not when you say watch them Humphrey and the hellebores. Humphrey and the hellabores, there's a children. When I first learnt about this model, it was quite revelatory, as so many of these models are, because of course before that I didn't really have a concept and a language to refer to when thinking about when thinking about change. It was just a a thing that you go through multiple times in organisations. And as soon as I I saw this model, A, I started recognising, oh, oh, I see what's happening here. But the second thing was, Phil, which I know you'll get on to, is how surprising some of the behaviours are that you would not think were about resistance to change. Yeah. Well, we're so we're so normalized, isn't it? Yeah. It's again, it's the water in the goldfish bowl, we stop seeing it, and we all do it, and and then we get, well, that's just that's just me. I mean, how many times have I heard that recently? You know, and then we get into the whole authenticity thing. Anyway, another big topic. So, what are edge behaviors? Well, edge behaviours are what shows up as we're discussing here, maybe sometimes, often, unconscious, always? Always we don't often say always. So when you feel edgy. When you feel edgy, so you know, someone comes in with right, you know, we've got we've got a transformation initiative, we're gonna turn this all around. It means completely changing how you communicate to your customers, or or or even if you've got, you know, you're in a you're in education, I had this, and they go, We're changing, we're changing the the the the portal that you upload your essays to. And you're like, oh it's no, you know, what are edge behaviours? And of course, where we can go in that is immediately what I one of the pieces I absolutely love about this is our wonderful prefrontal cortex that just does the most instant brilliant job at justifying why this is a terrible idea and why this won't work. Yeah, and you can think of it because of course the edge model or edge behaviours are very often depicted in terms of a pyramid or a triangle, and the current reality is on one side of it, and the the new yet as yet unseen is on the other side of the pyramid. Because you're on one side of the pyramid and you're looking at the pyramid and you look up and it just feels overwhelming. Well, it's a And you're like, yeah, I think I'll just stay here. Well, exactly, exactly, because it to follow through on your brilliant metaphor there and imagine, and it is exactly it is the model, you know, we love a pyramid. If you imagine, if you if if we bring that pyramid to life and turn it into a mountain, you're at the bottom of it, firstly looking up at the enormous climb ahead, secondly, imagining reaching the precipice and having to go off the other side into what? What? Yes. So if we think about our sort of primal brain here, where I love these thoughts we've had this before, when you imagine when humans, you know, or animals evolve, you're in the you're in you're in your sort of furs or your loins and. And you literally don't know what's 500 yards. You'll be like You'll be like Stan McCain. I think I've standing I'm literally, I I I actually don't know if the if the world is flat and I'm going to fall off the end of it. It really does make me think, Phil. I mean, I do often think about this because one of my daughters is studying nutrition at the moment, and it was so and they were talking about the history of food. Yeah. And the first, the first one, sort of prehistoric, was um not prehistoric, but you know, when we when we were first around as humans, it was like try and try try and fail. Yeah. Tried and tested. It was like trial, trial and error, that's what I was going to do. And trial and error had high screen. So it really makes me think we have to really thank the people who looked at those mountains and were like, I'm gonna have a crack. I'm having a crack and a cause still being crazy. But this is like this is like Malcolm Gladwell's outliers, isn't it? It's the ants around the edge of the of the central column that are going, I wonder what's happening. And you're like, Good luck, Bob. But at the Bob might find out Bob might find out a loaf of bread discarded, and you're like, go, go, Bob. But equally, Bob could get squashed. So, you know, we have we the pioneers plan the pioneers. So, anyway, so we're not necessarily saying everyone needs to be pioneers and charge up the mountain. Although we can find our way. Yes, exactly. We find a way. It might be Slara. Yeah, and we and it's exactly what we're gonna do. We're gonna help you find a route. Before we go on through it, I just want to mention, and I know leaders out there in organisations, you'll know this, but that analogy is a really good way to think about even some of the smallest changes that you're trying to encourage your team or your organization through. And yes, I you know, I understand there's often a need for speed, and you know, that things need to happen, actions need to happen. I guess just kind of pulling back and recognising that even if for you it doesn't feel particularly overwhelming or scary, just sort of just sort of just sort of recognise that there's quite a lot of people that will be looking at this hill and just yeah, completely overwhelmed and completely not able to visualize what's on the other side. Yeah, and so we're gonna get to how you would exactly how you would how you manage that as a leader. A bit like me going to the gym, Phil. We're gonna use that as an example. That's number three, getting over the edge, Ben. And I played a big part in that. Well, actually, it's not just making friends, it's Mark as well at the gym. Okay, let's get there. So so so edge behaviours. So, so really notice when you are at edge, and this can be all kinds of things. You'll probably uh procrastination is a is a huge one, overcontrolling, um, shutting down, blocking, snapping, catastrophizing. There's so many, so many things that we do. The important thing to say is two things to reframe edge behaviour. So, so uh to reiterate, edge behaviour will be almost like the the waters are still, something happens, and suddenly your boat is at least bobbing a little bit, if not completely rocking, and that's how it feels. Yeah, and the strategies will tend to be around, exactly as you said, just you're you're you're not quite sure yet whether there has to be any movement forward or whether you can stay where you are, you're also trying to manage your own anxiety. Exactly. You might also be trying to manage anxiety of other people. Exactly. So it very often comes through quite defensive behaviours, exactly as you said, asking lots of questions or procrastinating or shutting down. It can also come through some really surprising behaviours. Like if I think about sometimes working in in groups and teams, things like humour or sarcasm or uh creating little sort of clans, undermining, gossiping, that there's lots of things. Yeah, tribal behaviours, exactly, siloing that those people over there are gung-ho. Over here, we're right, they're wrong, we we should stick to the same path that we're on. Absolutely. So it's really becoming super aware that if any, like you say, any kind of change, I mean, literally, we're changing the brand of coffee with you. I mean, it honestly doesn't matter the size of it because what's weird about it, it's like trauma, it's not really the thing, it's the button that's the button that gets pushed. So if you've got a lot of change going on, and then someone says, Oh, we've changed the biscuit variety, and you go, I wasn't in I was not included in that, that's you that's edge behaviour that's that's a that's probably overwhelmed from the amount of change because that's a whole other piece there, but of course, you can actually do a change assessment, and you find that you're shouting about the biscuits when you when you start to look at tick the boxes of well, I've I'm moving house, I'm my ch my child's going to a new school, um, we've lost half the team. When you start to add it all up, you're in overwhelm. The biscuits, there wasn't any room left. Yeah, so I I certainly remember, I mean, well, I've I've been through a number of change initiatives in corporate, and I remember being with a really fun, fun team at one point, and we yeah, we were sort of going through this very very very challenging change, and of course, we used sort of tribal humour to a very sort of extreme degree. Yeah, and of course, you know, it helped us keep our spirits up because you know we found humour in in the situation, and of course, looking back, I can see how that was resisting the challenge. Yeah, it's exactly with it and and what's really useful about that, Penn, is is from all of this, and again, we'll get there, is really pulling apart what's useful here and what's not. Because actually, humour can be really useful, but is it inclusive or is it divisive? So we're also connecting with other people, you know, we can do that in a sort of gossipy and negative way. Exactly. Which is still an edge behaviour, but we can find the positive. So, two things I want to say, because we're gonna get more into the detail. Two things to say on what is it, what is edge behaviour. It can be absolutely anything that is taking you away from stepping forward and moving forward together. This is the way to think about it. It's just data. So rather than judging yourself that oh, I'm terrible, I should be more like this, or they should be more like this, is it's information. If you've got people stonewalling, or you've got people defensive or blocking, it's information. Use it as information, not as a judgment. It's self-awareness. I mean, it's great. Exactly. It's got oh, something's happening here. So the system is giving you information that this is tough, at least for some people. And the second thing is this is a really nice reframe. The only thing edge behaviour needs to be, it doesn't need to be failure, but the only thing it needs to be framed as is the moment before choice. And and I think it's a bit like the Tibetan monks using the idea of the mobile phone going off or the doorbell ringing during your meditation. You can see that as an irritation, or you can see it as a wake-up to become more conscious of what's actually happening, yeah, rather than it's a problem. Ah, I'm waking up to my irritation here. Let me let me go back. So use edge behaviour as ah, we're it we're in change here. This is this is information. And and it you'll all be different, so yeah, be aware that your own edge behaviour will be different to other people's edge behaviour. So sometimes it's quite difficult for us to identify in ourselves and certainly to identify in other people. Yeah. So we've kind of merged the second piece of this, which is recognising those triggers. So there's definitely something here around both for yourself and as a leader is giving some space to ask what's happening here before we even get to what we need to do and the change we need to step into is all let's take a moment. I'm noticing that we're in a bit of sort of conflict here, or there's some difficult feelings in the room. Let's really look at what's going on here. And and really important as a leader, I would offer as human beings, is that we go to the secondary level. That when we're thinking about you know problems to solve or edge behaviour through change, that we don't stop at oh Bob's blaming Jill and they're gossiping over there. But go to the secondary. What's happening? What's actually happening? Because those, like you say, those edge behaviors are all gonna look different. We've got some people who are turning up late, and some people who are turning up early, and yeah, so to make sure they get their voices heard more and not giving chart, and these are very different behaviours. I had a kind of similar conversation uh with a client yesterday who uh they've had a lot of disruption in a manufacturing industry in a plant and lots of stress and pressure. And of course, where we go to is that over-controlling, over information must have more, more, more, more information. Yeah. And I I just asked her, I said, do you think it really is that intellectual prefrontal cortex that needs serving, or is it the emotional dimension? And what you're saying about going to that second level, which I think sometimes we can we can neglect to do as leaders because we're busy and we stay in that sort of intellectual, let me give you some more information about the change, and let me explain why I'm right. Yes, does anybody not understand something that's happening in the change? And we'll stay there, and we don't often go to that second level. Is can we talk about what's happening in this room now and how everyone's feeling? And it can feel really hard to do that as a leader, but you're that's the thing that needs serving, and we just keep throwing data at it. You are so right, and we talk about this in the therapy room while we obviously we have our stories and we have our narrative and we have the things that have happened in our lives or that are happening. That is kind of the material to understand what's happening underneath, and you're absolutely right. We can end up staying in that, and that narrative just keeps adding. You'll never have enough information. Because it's all it because there'll be another moment in the kitchen tomorrow that was annoying. There'll always be more. And I'll still be gossiping with Bob by the way. That will never start exactly. So, recognizing the triggers, recognise that these are often unconscious choices, they've been survival strategies that we've grown up with. You're key as an individual or a leader. Get curious, not critical. She loves an alliteration. Because obviously, as the leader, it's so easy, isn't it, to look at your system and go, well, if Bob, Dave, Sandra, and Jill didn't weren't doing this, we'd all be fine. Well, I'm gonna double-and you had you add your own siloing. Well, I'm gonna double down on that, which is the leader themselves might actually be quite critical of the change initiative. Well So you've just got it, you've just got it flowing right down the organisation. Let me triple down on my alliteration. Get curious, not critical, because it's contagious. Come on. Laura, there's got to be some kind of music. Jingle jingle for I don't think such a jingle exists for like a a double alliteration and then a triple. If we get the quadruple, I don't even know what happened. Maybe the podcast explodes.

SPEAKER_02

It's triple alliteration. Bill and pick for the human beings.

Getting Over The Edge: Buddies And Small Trials

Tools To Move: Visioning, Schedules, First Steps

The Inside Job: Self‑Regulation

From Reactivity To Possibility

Three Ways To Live With Change

Five-Step Summary And Close

CTAs: Share, Connect, Join Platform

SPEAKER_01

So get curious, not critical because it's interactive. I'm just gonna keep I'm gonna keep saying that. I'm just keep saying that. I'll keep saying that. I'm gonna put that on a pose. I love nothing more than alliteration. But you know what? There's one thing I love more than alliteration, is an alliteration that's just happened in the moment. I mean it's like, it's like the it's like I'm my body is absolutely filled with joy at the moment. So, here's two it's a small thing, it's a small thing, thank god. It always should be, because it's much easier, isn't it? So we're gonna we're gonna do a podcast of the joy series that way. Okay, so the end of this section is leader or member of team or family or friends, name the pull. Name the negative pull, name it, put it in the room. What that what edge what triggers love, nothing more, is to stay in the dark and be working under the surface like the feet under us. And when you say what's going on here, and Bob folds us up, nothing. Nothing, nothing's going on over here, everything's fine here. Then we then we probably need to change things up, but you absolutely know something's going on. And when you name the pull, I'm noticing that it maybe notice it for yourself as I'm noticing how much I want to go to blaming the higher-up authority figures here. I'm I'm noticing how much I want to go to. This will never work. I mean, that's a classic one, isn't it? This will never work. Name the pull, because when you've put it on the table, it's like putting a pile of donuts on the table. Nobody can say there's no donuts on the table. It's there. So you make it an object, don't let it run the show, put it out front. So really name the pull. I'm really noticing that we are looking at what's not gonna work, what the problems are, the negative. And don't judge it, completely understand it. I feel I I kind of feel the same. Yeah, exactly. Well, exactly. I was just gonna say exactly that for that. It might help if you feel you can to show that little bit of vulnerability as a leader. You know, I might say something like, Look, I know for me that a bit of sarcasm and quips is probably indicative of the fact that I'm at I'm at the edge of something. So can we notice that? Can we notice that? And you know, if anybody else feels they have something. And you almost don't have to do a lot more with it, because you know, you've got no doubt super clever people on your team. It's just that all these, like you say, the physical and emotional likes to work under the water and we don't have a language for it. A little bit like synchronised swimmers, it's all messy under there, and they only want to come up when it looks neat. And what you're saying is we're gonna look at the mechanics under there. Okay, how do we get number three? How do we get over the edge? We're definitely gonna talk about the gym here. Ah, well, I know this is I mean, this is one from us from childhood, Phil. So there's lots of ways to get to get over the edge, which which Phil will go into. One of them is about having either having a partner to go. With you. So literally imagine you're going up the mountain and someone sort of holding your hand or sort of helping you pull up on the ropes, andor somebody just goes ahead of you and says, It's alright up here, it's all right up. And I have to say, you are the oldest friend. And I feel in in many times in my life, you have been that either partner by my side or the person sort of going ahead. Classic example of you going ahead was uh sledging when we were young. And you ended up in A. No, so I didn't do that. Uh but the gym is a brilliant recent example that I've got to be really honest with myself. Not my favourite thing, yeah, wouldn't go on my own. And you were like, We're doing it. Yeah, we're doing it. And I was like, Yeah, you you definitely got me over that hurdle of getting in my car on a whatever evening and going to the gym. So getting over the edge, I'm probably more a jumper. Yes, definitely. So I don't I really don't want to spend too long thinking about it. You don't yeah, you don't want to be on this side of the mountain at all. Talking, talking, talking about what it might be like on the side. You just like, you're already half, I'm gonna go. And actually, on the descent, when I realise there's no trampoline at the bottom, I'll fix en route. I'll I'll I'll whip my jumper off and make a parachute. You know, that's more how and I'm I think that's you know, recognising the what helps me get over the edge is I think what I know about myself is I've got the energy to go to run around, go back up and try again. That I'd I'd rather have speed and lots of attempts than think about getting the perfect attempt. I think that's overall true of me. Not always, but overall. And can I make a reference here, which we'll decide if we keep this in? But for anybody who watched the celebrity traitors in the UK, Claire Balding, who is a TV presenter and sort of sports personality in the UK, is a I mean, such a brilliant example of this. So they were doing an exercise and everyone was talking about it and trying to work out how to do it together, and Claire was just like, oh, I'm just gonna go and pull the lever. There you go. What a lovely thing. And on that occasion it didn't work, but it might have done. It might have done, yeah, love it, love it. So so it's really recognising what helps you get over the edge. You know, a a friend is an absolutely brilliant example. And there's a piece of research recently which I absolutely love, which was people were put at the bottom of a mountain looking up the top to to to hike up. One group were put on their own and asked how they felt and assessed on how easy they thought it would be and how long it would take. And and the other group, every time, were put in pairs, in buddy pairs. And the people who were put into pairs always judged it as shorter, quicker, and easier. Wow, because they were with a friend, isn't that amazing? So it could be the other one might be as well, just um a little trial. Yes, a mini trial. Yes, so I think I'm gonna build you a little bit. I mean, if I if I think about this in terms of the the software accounting change that I was the biggest change I went through when I was in corporate many, many years ago. If somebody had just given me a little you're you're only gonna use it for this, one tiny thing, and there's not a billion sort of buttons and this down the side, there's just three. Yeah, I think I might have got there a lot quicker, but because the new systems and accounting software are absolutely overwhelming. Can I give it? So let me give an equivalent of that. You have a new IT setup, so what I would need is to not eat the whole elephant, as we say. To do to know everything about that. And Matt did this brilliantly on AI. Actually, what's the one bit that would be really useful right now? So can you take it in chunks? Yeah, run ahead. That I absolutely love. Visualising it is you spare it as well. Act as if you're already there and see what see what that's doing it for others as well, is really good. So, you know, even if you're sitting on the side of the mountain thinking, oh, I don't want to do this, I don't think it's gonna work. Just look around your colleagues and think, you know what, we know we have to do it. I'm gonna I'm gonna run ahead for them. I'm gonna do it for them. Can I say your a phrase I love that you say sometimes to me is I'm taking one for the team. Yeah, I'll do it for the team, and actually, you know, pop it in your bank. Yeah, exactly. Well, also, particularly if we add in that lovely Boston matrix of what's high value to them and low cost to me, is actually I find this easy, so I'm gonna jump first. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Uh, lots of people do need lots of information, other people, a schedule will work brilliantly for you, much more planning. Yeah, uh, like I said before, visioning for some people is hugely important. So, creating imagery, we often say, is is really important to help people understand what might be on the other side of the mountain and get moving as well. So, lots of ways we can help people to get over the edge. I love the small step, I think that's really good. Um that makes me think of the um pandemic. I feel like we're starting to talk about this finally as actual history. Yeah, it will be in the history books. Yeah, we totally will, yeah, if not already. But so the pandemic was a really good example. We we had to pivot very, very quickly as a um as an SME, and I remember going up to the woods with an iPhone, and my partner at the time's daughter was did some filming for me, and it was that small chunk, it's like I don't know what is going to unfold in the next few weeks, like none of us knew whether it was gonna be like some sort from you know, the the movie contagion or whatever. But what I could do was that first thing of well, what we can do is put some useful tips and content out online, like that. I absolutely knew that, and it was so accessible, yeah. And what it actually did was completely unfold into not only courses we ran, but the whole digital platform we now have. But I didn't know that at the time, but it would that was doable, yes, and it answered a problem. Yeah, the small steps really small. Number four, so yeah, so so what's what's going to get you over the edge? Number four is the inside job. Now we we covered some of this in the resilience before we what once we've you know thought about well what happens in change, the edge behaviours, the triggers, and getting over the edge. One of the pieces that we need is to self-regulate and because just remember it's it's a physical response. And again, we go to the prefundal cortex, we think we need information, but the body is in uncertainty. Exactly. And do you know the thing I it's like like you're in the cave? Yeah, like the thing I absolutely love, love, love about this because I know I really any listeners who are going, oh, we're in the breathing, we're in the breathing, meditating, self-regulating. I do I have a bit of that. I have a bit of that. But this this is the We don't do the breathing in the yoga class. But we need to. I mean I breathe. Yeah, sure. I mean I don't do the sort of breathing sex. We need to talk about that. This is the bit I love. This is the bit I love about this. This is so important. When we're in change, when we're in uncertainty, even chaos, I mean, you know, whatever, look at the world. Oh my goodness, we spend so much time looking outwards to either blame, have a go, or critique, or solve it, solution, you should do something, rescue me. And this is a trap because we get stuck. Yes. What you can the what I love about this is the certainty and stability you can is within absolutely access is one actual body. It's the only place, isn't it? It's the only place. I was really good. And what we do is we spend all this time dysregulated and unstable, trying to get the other person or system to get regulated so that we can feel regulate. You can shortcut this baby, you can go, that's dysregulated out there. I'm gonna regulate. Anybody, for anybody, and I I I could finish that sentence who is going through a period of change in their work, but it's sort of pointless now because everybody is. But for anybody out there who has got involved in a um slightly or dramatically conflictual uh long email chain where more and more people get copied in, which happens so often. Yeah, just imagine how different the means and the style of the communication would have been if every single person involved in that email chain had done a little bit of self-regulation before stepping to their keyboard. Yes. I mean well, and then got off email, but yeah, and then got off email idea. Yeah, it'll be totally different. It'll be totally different. But we think the answer is out there. Yeah, absolutely. I want to caveat this with I know that for some many that self-regulation has not been learned through their childhood and development. So it's so interesting, isn't it? Because we can just sort of slop this in and go, oh, by the way, before you step into change, bit of breathing, get self-regulated. But actually, this isn't this is incredibly difficult and actually can be very, very uncomfortable for people to tune into what's going on in their body. And and particularly neurodiverse people, that the the emotional dimension can be very difficult to get to regulate. Yes. But lots of us, as you say, don't learn it. We don't learn that we can actually self-regulate internally because just through the way we've been conditioned, we we understand that regulation has to come from outside. And of course, that's not a case. So I want to give a caveat to this. For some people, stillness, calming, gentle walk in nature, reading a book, having a bath, all gonna help. For some people, we need to kind of be a little bit more activated than that. So things like more movement, a brisk walk, maybe even dancing around the kitchen, that you are you're putting some activation into your system, but you're taking control of it, exactly. So find your access point. If sitting on a beanbag just leaves you completely imploding internally, then get moving. Move a bit. Okay, you're you're effectively what you're doing is you're trying to counter the trigger that's happened by you taking control of your breathing, your nervous system, regulating your body because something externally has sort of think of it as something that suddenly sort of grabbed it and is in control of it, and you want to grab control. And you're saying we're in control here. Exactly that. Okay, number five, the possibility mindset. I'm gonna ri I'm gonna I'm gonna read this out. It is not possible to access possibility from a place of reactivity. So that's why step four is so important because that whole fight or flight is not designed for you to go, oh, I think I'll go and take a look over here. Yeah, it's designed for tiger on the tiger. Exactly. Fight or flight. I'm not thinking, oh, I'm wondering if something new. Shall we have a look? Get curious. Like exactly. So you have so we have to get at least, and it's a good point though that sometimes, sometimes you don't necessarily want to step into possibility. Like if there's genuine danger. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's relatively rare that there's actual danger in a change initiative. Absolutely, absolutely in the workplace. Exactly. So it might feel like that, but exactly. So, and it's not even like we said before, it's not it's not that we have to be in some kind of zen state all the time. It's just that if we are in the reactivity where we feel out of control, we're not going to be able to look for possibility. Okay. This is the thing I love about the possibility mindset. We've done so much on this over our podcasting and training days. It's a can-do attitude, it's what's possible. Here's the thing to think about: not to go into self-blame or defeat or you know that that sort of catastrophe is not working. I'm a terrible person, I'm a terrible leader, I'm weak, I shouldn't think like this. We are wired that way. Like, give yourself a break. That's where the brain's gonna go. But it's noticing it and shifting to what can I control, what is possible here, and this is what I love. Humphrey, get out of the hill of it. See, he's literally digging my flowers out. Um now we've got we've got activated dogs now. But this is the way to think about the possibility mindset. Where is your energy going? Yes, I think that's a much more accessible way that I should or I should not. Totally, Phil. And you you very often talk about this more sort of in the in the arena of mental health, that that the energy is is there and and anxiety is there, it's just inherent in who who we are as humans. And the question exactly as you said, where do you want it to go? And there's I mean, there's a number of ways it could go, it could implode in in terms of, as you said, self-criticism or just bringing us down or stagnating, it could go out in terms of reactivity. It is equally possible to push it out into creativity. I would offer, and this is not true for everybody, but I would offer that for some of us, pushing that anxiety and energy out into creativity takes a little bit more conscious thought. Yes. The other two places might be a bit autopilot for some of us. Yeah, so we need the mindset of what's possible here, and that and that is simply our stopping, asking the question: what could we do right now? What is in our hands right now? What would be possible if we stopped spending our energy here and put it here? And from there, it doesn't have to be huge, but we know the direct relationship between anxiety and action. As soon as we start taking action of what's possible, our anxiety starts to go down. I mean, honestly, it can even be doing the doing the washing up or tiding a drawer. Like it's just doing something. I did something I really thought of you yesterday. I love tiding a drawer. Well, I really thought of you yesterday. I did I can't even remember what it was now. I remember thinking I must say this to Penn. I did some really sort of household tie, I can't remember what it was. And I remember getting to the end, I got to the end of it, it must have taken 20 minutes, and I thought, ah, that feels done. That feels good. That feels good because it was completion. Yes, I will watch videos of people organising their under sync covers film. I know. It's completion, it's completion, it's the gestalt, it's the full circle, and in uncertainty and difficulty or chaos, what we don't have is the gestalt, is the complete circle. So if you can find smaller tasks, possible tasks that you can do of well, what we can do is change our office sort of communication choices or system, or we can change our um slide decks or something, you can do a completion task within the chaos that can really regulate you. And it's also developmental. So, you know, for those of you who are interested in sort of developmental theory, the you know, the stage of human development that we are pushing into and we need to push into is creativity. So really moving from reactivity to creativity. So, you know, get ahead of the curve, yeah. You know, pause where you know, when you're feeling that edge in change, when you're feeling like things aren't possible, take a moment and think, do I want to be a developed human being? And step into the creative mindset, the possibility mindset. And and call a friend on the way and have an event. Yeah, absolutely fine. Like the feelings are there, and that makes me think of this last piece on this. Well, just to say again, this is contagious. So, as a leader, when you start looking at possibility and using that language, it's going to start really. Well, if you ask your team what's the problem here, what are the issues here, versus what's one thing that's positive, or what's one thing you love about this? The whole conversation. The whole conversation changes. So, really important. This is not to pretend that difficulty doesn't exist. This is simply to refuse to live there. So we're not looking at the toxic posity like we where we started, the full loop, completion, um, of sort of, you know, of of like the fixed grin and pretense. It's you go that you're right. We don't know, this is tough, yes, it feels hard. We can't get hold of those products. Yes, the customers are gonna have to take toys, we're gonna have to take half a day off. Yeah, this is all true, and we're not gonna live there. Yes. We're gonna acknowledge that it's there, and we're gonna well, we're gonna ask a different question. Well, we often say for don't we, which you which you love, that at the simplest level there are three ways to live your life. And I think that is true now more than ever, because you know, the world is just happening at a time. You'll have to name you'll have to name those three. Yeah, I will. The world is just happening to us at an ever-increasing pace. Yeah, that is happening. Yeah, and I think lots of what we see in change initiatives and change theory is is the energy is spent trying to stop it from happening. Yeah, or to control it, or to control it, or redirect it. It's going to keep happening and it's gonna keep happening faster and faster. So, your choice as a human being is you have three choices. Very simple. This is happening, I'm going to be sort of victim to it and just accept that it's happening and sort of might be a bit passive, might be a bit victimised, might accept things that are really against your values. I'm just gonna be crushed by it. The second way to live your life is to fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. I'm gonna be reactive, I'm gonna push back, I'm gonna complain, I'm gonna blame, I'm gonna this isn't right, I'm gonna blah blah blah. The third way to live your life as all this change is happening is to reflect on yourself and decide to change something here. Now, that might be an awareness around an edge behaviour, it might be taking an action, it might be asking a more uh sort of possibility mindset question, but that really is your creative choice of where to live your life. So empowering, yeah. I just love it so much. So, your tip right at the end of this, if we wrap all of this up, we move through, recognize your edge behaviour. Recognize the triggers within yourself, name it. Thirdly, how can you and others get over the edge? What are the things that help you get through that wall of fire over the edge? Number four, inside job, get yourself regulated, don't wait for the system to regulate you, get yourself certain and stable. Number five, how can you go into that positive mindset? Where are you putting your energy? What is possible here? One simple question to ask to bring all of this together. Stop breathe, name what's happening, and then ask what can we actually do here? Very nice, simple. So that is your episode two of change. We have another one coming. We've got another one coming up, which is all about that flex, that adaptation, moving quickly and move to taking things into action and being much more really a way of being. Yeah. That you are simply that, you don't even you stop even thinking about it because when change comes in, uncertainty comes in, you're already that bamboo, that tree that's ready to flex and move. It's wonderful. It is wonderful. It's so free. Meeting the system just in every moment where it is. Well, we've got a taxi coming in about half an hour for us. So my question is, what can we actually do here and now? Well, we need to stop recording, say goodbye to our fabulous listeners, and uh get these dogs up to the dog sitter and go to Copenhagen. Lovely. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the 40 Human Being Podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Do take on board some of the insights, tools, and tips because every time that you try something new to get back to choice, you are making a vote for the you that you want to become. And I I love that phrase, Pen. I do too. And please do share this episode with somebody that you know would really benefit from the lessons and learnings we've been chatting about today. And of course, if you're interested in more from 4D Human Being, do get in touch. We run workshops, trainings online, in person, conference events and keynotes. We've got the 4D on-demand platform for your whole organization, and we do have a free essentials membership where anybody can sign up for absolutely free to access some of our insights, tools, and tips. So do get in touch with us if you'd like to hear more. We cannot wait to hear from you and to carry on the conversation.