4D Human Being Podcast

Spiral Dynamics: Why YOUR Company Needs Every Colour of the Spiral

• 4D Human Being • Season 4 • Episode 48

Share episode

In this concluding episode of our Spiral Dynamics trilogy, we explore how leaders can create truly integrated cultures that honour diverse perspectives across the entire spiral.

Ever wondered why your carefully crafted company values resonate with some team members but fall flat with others? The answer lies in understanding that people operate from different value sets – what motivates someone with a process-oriented "blue" mindset differs dramatically from what drives an achievement-focused "orange" perspective. 

We break down five essential areas for building a spiral-aware culture: 

  1. Engagement
  2. Retention
  3. Flexibility
  4. Communication
  5. Brand

Offering practical insights for speaking to every colour on the spiral.

We dive into the fascinating world of holacracy – a decentralized approach to organizational structure exemplified by companies like Zappos and Whole Foods. Using the human body as a metaphor, we explore how organisations function as interdependent systems where each part operates both autonomously and as part of a greater whole. This systems thinking approach recognises that intelligence exists throughout an organisation, not just at the top of a hierarchy.

For leaders, developing an "improviser mindset" is key – the ability to flex between different value sets, meeting people where they are while moving the organisation forward. Even in moments of conflict, there's always a gift if you're willing to look for it. By understanding the vital role each spiral perspective plays, you can build cultures where people feel valued for their authentic contributions and your organization benefits from the full spectrum of human potential.

Ready to transform your organisational culture? Download our FREE Spiral Dynamics language handout here: https://www.4dhumanbeing.com/wp-content/uploads/4D-Spiral-Dynamics-Language-handout-4DHB.pdf

And don't forget to sign up for our Essentials membership at 4dhumanbeing.com and learn how to identify and communicate effectively with every value set.

Speaker 1:

Hello, my name is Philippa Waller, my name is Penelope Waller and we are two of the directors at 4D Human being. And welcome to the 4D Human being podcast. What's it all about, pen? It's all about your personal and professional relationships. It's about your communication skills, how you lead, how you work and build teams, how you are looking after yourself and your well-being, and how you are much more at choice. What do we mean by that? Well, sometimes we can get a little caught in patterns in life and we can all be a little bit on our automatic pilot. So 40 human being is all about helping us get back to choice and being a four-dimensional human being, and your fourth dimension, of course, is intention. So, whether it's about your impact, your leadership style, your team dynamics, whether it's about your well-being, whether it's about your communication or your presentation skills anything that involves human beings interacting with other human beings 40 Human being are here to help. We're going to take a deep dive and look at some tools, insights, theories that are going to help you go from a 3D human doing to a 4D human being, so that you can happen to the world rather than the world simply happening to you. We're on, good afternoon and welcome.

Speaker 1:

I do want to say, yes, this attire, yes, is not entirely by accident. Okay, discuss, I don't often wear this top. In fact, I haven't worn it for years and it's like a sort of black high neck. Yeah, because I went to see Jurassic Park Rebirth the other day. There's always a movie, so Scarlett Johansson ah, I see the link now is the gun toting tough like dinosaur killer, not killer. She's taking DNA samples, won't go into the plot. Yeah, anyway, I mean, you know properly gun toting, yeah, and I said I turned to my and she was wearing a well, this is the sort of thing you know, or a white vest top with a khaki, you know, but very much I could either go to a beach bar or kick someone in the head, yeah, yeah, or be an international spy, yeah. So I turned, I turned to my daughter and I said, oh, yeah, I feel like I'm a bit like she hasn't, she hasn't been able to stop mocking you for it since, exactly. But I thought if I wear the outfit, I might try and persuade her. Do you know what? Do you know what? And she said, mummy, you are in no way a whopper type of woman, and I know exactly what she means by that, because I got to go whopper, like I'm some kind of Well, I've actually started putting a post together. All about when we catch my fantasy land, well, close pen. When we catch ourselves saying that's not me, I'm like, yeah, as soon as you hear that, go, but right, could it be? Yeah, you see, small steps, yeah, start with the top exactly. You never know what. What might come next. You'll end on a boat in the Mediterranean with a gun in your hand hanging off off the side of your waist. It started with a T-shirt. You see, you've got to reach for it first. You've got to reach for it first.

Speaker 1:

I thought I would also give an update on Catgate. Oh, thank you, because we were. This is for those of you who do not know the history of this. I'm getting text messages about Catgate from listeners. Okay, so this is Penelope driving down through Europe, in an electric car, I might add, which added a sort of challenge.

Speaker 1:

It was quite easy in Europe, good To collect a cat to come back for the summer, and the premise being that everybody had said to me A oh my God, what a nightmare, a cat in a car for two days. And B oh my God, what a nightmare. A cat in the house with your dog. They're going to kill each other. So I was nervous and I said I'll give an update en route about Catgate Cat in the car. But I have to say I'm touching everything here. Touchy, I haven't got wood. I mean, so far I am going to touch wood so far.

Speaker 1:

Bit of an anti-climax film, I know, because it had all been quite smooth. Yeah, I was ready for sort of cat screeching you know podcast recordings from the car to say you know. But no, everyone seems to be getting along. Yeah, everyone's getting on. Dog and cat just sort of looked at each other and then flopped down and went to sleep. Cat was fine in the car. Cat's still alive. Well, this made in the car. Cats are alive.

Speaker 1:

Well, this, I gave a lot of platform to cat games. Well, and then I'm disappointed by the action, although I'm not disappointed. What I was going to say, you know what? This is a nice precursor trailer for we are about to film this summer our next 4d on demand series managing difficult conversations and conflict. And this is exactly what a lot of us do in difficult situations and conflict is the build up, the build up, the build up. It's going to be a nightmare. It's going to be a nightmare, there's going to be fireworks and there's going to be drama, and so we avoid, avoid, avoid, and then when it actually happens often it's probably a conversation, exactly, discuss, and I've got all the kit. You know, yeah, I've bought like a tracker, I've bought like a harness, I bought window lock so that the shutters in my house, but all this I'm thinking it's just basically going to be a summer of carnage, chaos and possibly losing the cat. You've got to get yourself on pet ebay now. You've got a lot of products to sell on. I've got a lot of products anyway, loving the cat, absolutely loving the cat, oh well, who knew? Who knew that? Who knew? Well, congratulations on that. So all good on the summer cat yes, summer cat front, and, of course, humphrey puppies. Second puppy arrives in a few weeks. So it's the summer of pets.

Speaker 1:

You did a lovely linkedin post, phil, with welcome to welcome to humphrey. He's lovely, he's lovely. So I've met him now and held him in my arms and we saw him for a short time with his he's still with his mum, obviously, and his siblings. He's a dog, by the way, he's a dog? Yes, that would. That would be weird, that would be yes, it's not a new partner late leaving, late leaving his mother, um. But but what was interesting was when I got back into the house because Billy hadn't come to me, humphrey. So when I got back to the house, billy was sniffing my blouse where I'd held Humphrey. Like what's going on? Like, hang on a second, who's this guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can smell something. So he's definitely alert. So that might be more dramatic than cat gate. We'll see, we'll see. But you know, it's all change and change is normal. Yeah, nothing certain but change and taxes. So we are on the third and last of our spiral dynamics podcast.

Speaker 1:

People have been loving this. I just love this model. I mean the 4d, the core 4d model, the integral map that we have, the 4d 2c, the intentional self in the three dimensions of physical, emotional, intellectual, and then in the two contexts of relationship and environment. That was the first model that changed my life. This is the second, yeah, okay, which is very linked because this is also an integral model. Yeah, this is integral model, exactly model. Yeah, it's an integral model, exactly so today.

Speaker 1:

Firstly, what I want to say is, in these show notes and on social media. Check out on LinkedIn, instagram and if you have signed up to the Essentials online course on courses on the 4D website, that's completely free. You can get impact, essentials, storytelling, pres skills, well-being, and soon you'll also have personal profile. And next, probably early next year, you'll have managing conflict at the free level. You can just sign up email address and you'll get all of that content and you'll get two emails a month with extra tips and in those emails you will also get the link to the handout.

Speaker 1:

And the handout with this series is brilliant. It's it takes you through every value set, every color, and it's a language handout. It's only a few couple of pages and it tells you how to identify who is in what color by the kind of things that they will say. The language they'll use, what they really do not want to hear, so language to avoid with them and what they really love hearing, so the language that will really influence them. So, in each colour, how can you identify them? What they don't want to hear and what they want to hear, and in terms of being a leader or a team member or running an organization, flex and flow, flex and, if you can, if you can map the people in your organization or the sections in your organization to colors and know how to talk to them in slightly different ways or in a, in a company-wide keynote, to hit all of that language. So you're hitting it, hitting all of those value sets.

Speaker 1:

Black belt communicator. Well, I was talking to a uh, a leader yesterday in one of our, in one of our big clients. He absolutely loves this stuff. I mean, interestingly, he has a he he had a finance and we're running more and more, yeah, actual sessions with this. He had a finance background but he's also very much moved into the world of kind of coaching and human development and we were talking about this model and specifically in the area of, he works in a particular area of finance and, just as you've said, in a way the facts are the facts. With finance, you know you're doing a report, whatever you're doing, and what he was talking about was exactly this. So we spoke about Spiral Dynamics was and you've got to influence very diverse stakeholders to act on the information. Yes, it's fact, but it's that bridge, that influencing piece that is so critical to what his organisation do.

Speaker 1:

So it's so important and I will say that the language handout is kind of linked to episode two, where we really dived into the language piece of Spiral Dynamics. Is it dived or dove? I think it's dive. Is it dive, dive, dove, behave? I dove into the pool, I dived, I don't know. Now I think you can use both, but I like a language conundrum. Yeah, we might have to look that up, and the first episode was going into detail on the model. So definitely listen to those two if you haven't listened to this.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and this one. We're going to talk about creating a culture within that really carries spiral dynamics, so creating a spiral culture leading from a position of second tier yellow. If you've listened to the first two podcasts, you'll know what that means. How are you modeling and communicating? That means you really can create a culture and actually what does a kind of integral spiral second tier culture even look? Well, it's really interesting, isn't it, to think about even trying to identify your existing culture. This is a really useful map to do that absolutely, because lots of organizations will have principles or mission statements or pillars that can sometimes be quite tangible. Other times they're not very tangible and it can sometimes be difficult to really kind of pinpoint what the company is all about. There can be be quite diverse principles. This is a wonderful map to understand what your company principles are trying to do in terms of value.

Speaker 1:

There's two things you've said in the last few minutes that are absolutely golden and you didn't even know it. Pen you just I mean, you just give gold Nuggets it's just gold coming out all the time that are so important when we are thinking about culture and culture change. One the boston change consultancy, I think they're called did a piece of research on a paper a few years ago and it looked at what they called the paradox of change that we cannot change as an individual or as an organization if we don't accept where we are currently. So this comes up in the therapy clinic, it comes up in coaching and it comes up teams, organizationally. If you're trying to get somewhere, but you, you have not really understood where you're coming from, nothing is going to happen. It's like teflon it's just going to pour off you. Yeah, but exactly that identifying, okay.

Speaker 1:

Well, if we want to get to second tier, where are we? Exactly, because your journey is going to be very different if you're starting from red than if you're starting from green. Exactly, absolutely. And be honest. Yeah, be honest, this is about. Okay, on the wall, there might be a mission statement that says we're gonna love and care for the world. Yeah, is that what's really going on exactly? And that's and you know it's so interesting. You mentioned therapy, because it can be one of the hardest yeah, the mirror and the most important thing, absolutely, where are we exactly just thinking about? I'm just going to name a brand, could name any, anyone, but I don't even know if it still exists but sports direct is an example that would have had a longer journey to get to second tier because it had a very red boss. Now that came with its challenges as well. But that and its advantages and its advantages in terms of exactly that sort of energy, okay.

Speaker 1:

The second thing is, as you mentioned earlier, it's all very well having your mission statement on the wall and your goal and your purpose, but in change and in culture creation, we are not moved by the intellect. Yes, we need the intellect for the direction, we need to understand where we're going and what we need to do, but it is our values and our emotions that are going to be spoken to. So it's so important that we use language not that speaks to the intellect, but that speaks to our underlying values and emotional drivers To drive the actions that will then effectively demonstrate or embody the culture that you are living in. So again, it's all very well having wonderful mission statements, and they are super useful, exactly as you said, as a directional tool. It is the behavi behaviors of people that that identifies what culture we're actually in. Absolutely. So what's really interesting?

Speaker 1:

I want to start with this we're going to look at kind of five areas that you can think about when you're thinking about creating a culture change, having a kind of spiral culture where it's a really integrated culture allowing for all these different value sets. The first thing I want to talk about is values themselves, because it's a funny word actually. Well, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Allowing for all these different value sets? The first thing I want to talk about is values themselves, because it's a funny word actually. Well, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because we, when we talk about culture, we often see these headlines or these articles, or you might have had consultancies in who said right, you know, we need to really pick your values and get everyone behind your values, but we've just gone through a model that really clearly demonstrates. Everybody has different value sets.

Speaker 1:

So if you put your three values on the wall you know, caring and sharing, giving back, open to opportunity you're going to have quite a lot of people in that organization potentially who they might believe in those things, but they're coming from a different place. Like, for example, if you're a startup that is very aspirational, you've got some people on the ground floor who want to make the sale, yeah. So how are you connecting that more red or orange energy with why it's going to be helpful to align behind these values? Now, that could be a really quick bridge. You know that we live in a very competitive world. We live in a customer-focused world. We live in a world where those much greener, caring values are also commercial, because that's what people want. They want sustainability, they want good branding. So you can make the link.

Speaker 1:

But you've got to make the link, yeah, because if someone is you, you know just about to start a family and wants to buy a house and is thinking about, you know, taking care of his family or her family and putting some money in the bank, sure, they might want to work for a company with really good values, but their personal values are not at this point, about giving their money away to charity. It's about them achieving. Yeah, so you have you got to get people by talking to them from where they are. You can align all kinds of people behind some value statements and mission statements, but you have to understand they're not all reaching them in the same way, and I guess there's two things I would say about that.

Speaker 1:

One is going back to something we mentioned in the very first episode. It's not that any values that people have are right, wrong, bad, good, like if you're in a situation where suddenly your costs have gone up significantly and you just need to be in a value set that is driving your income, that is a perfectly valid place to be. There's likely to be very good reasons behind that why you want to do that. It's not that any of these are good, bad, right, wrong. They're life stages. They're all important. They're all important in running a business. They're all important in our life stages. Exactly as you said, it's or, or something changes. It's important, it's more, to speak to them all.

Speaker 1:

The second thing I would say and again I mentioned this on the first episode is just to just to mention the word values itself, because I remember when I started using this word way back at the beginning of my coaching career, and for me who I've got quite a lot of those sort of concrete values around, the sort of blue. It's a word that can feel a bit intangible to some people. So when you say that you mean that your values are more on kind of like get organised, get doing Maybe. But also sometimes you say to somebody what are your values? Not everybody finds that an easy question to answer. It feels a bit what's important to you, what do you care about? Exactly? It feels intangible and it's not necessarily something I've thought about.

Speaker 1:

So, like I said on the first episode, I like to think of our value set, as you know, having that coloured piece of glass in front of our face that we're not aware. We're not aware of how we see the world, our perspective and what's important to us. It's just something inherent in ourselves. So if you find that question difficult to answer, what are your values, don't worry. It's not often a question that all of us ask ourselves. And I say this because in an organization, when we're talking about company values again, if it's not terminology that you're particularly comfortable or familiar with, it can feel quite hard to get connected with that word. So I just offer yes, it's an important word, it is the word we use in Sprout Dynamics. Just be aware of your relationship with that word. And there are other things you can say. I like the word lens perspective that they're quite useful to me.

Speaker 1:

It's making me think about to launch in the next month or two our new website and with that we'll go our full personal profile series on 4d on demand. As you know, it's in the well-being so I'll take that back in the. I'm pretty sure it's in the well-being. It might be in both in in the well-being series there's a bonus module on finding your purpose, connecting to your purpose and your values, and there's an exercise in that called the value stack, which is really brilliant and we might do a short version of it to put out on the 4D on demand email newsletters and it's a really quick way to manage that feeling of I don't really know what my values are. It's a really nice exercise to within five minutes minutes, you can very quickly get a pretty rough idea of what your top three are. So nice so you can access that through 40 on demand.

Speaker 1:

So values exactly that. So we want to. You want to get people behind your company values. They'll need different language to be motivated to get there. Yeah, so I want to talk about five ways.

Speaker 1:

We're really talking here about whether or not you are, it's your organisation, or you're a CEO or a boss, or whether you're a leader, or whether you're a team member, or it doesn't really matter, because you can influence culture from up down side, everywhere. It's such a good point, phil. I think it's so interesting Be the thing, isn't it? Yeah, sometimes we can think we're waiting to be told what the new company values are. We're waiting to be told, and that's I mean. Obviously, that's true. In a lot of cases, the board will set the direction and the company values, and it's kind of meaningless without the behaviours and the actions. And, as you say, that can come from anywhere, that can come from anybody at any level, and it needs to. Yeah, I'm so excited about our new 4d on demand series. I keep I'm so in it at the moment the managing conflict.

Speaker 1:

But it so speaks to this because we're doing a whole section, a whole module with different sections on on the games that people play within organizations, and it really speaks. You know part of what we're talking to is really about power games, which is one of the modules, and how we might wait for someone else to take the lead or set the culture and there's nothing I can do because we've stepped out of responsibility. I don't have the control. I don't have the control. They're the boss or the hierarchies, like this, and we disempower ourselves in those games. So that's really relevant for culture, because giving in to whatever other people's choices are and we have met some incredible people in our time, haven't we who are influencing culture from right within the heart of companies and often and they are really memorable people Absolutely, and not the bosses necessarily not chairing those meetings, and sometimes people aren't even quite aware of the power that is happening from that place. They sort of it's like they can't. They don't really know why, but it just feels different in that team.

Speaker 1:

Ok, so the five areas that we can think about in terms of how you can influence culture and then we'll put them all through a spirals lens is engagement, retention, flexibility, communication and brand. You have not alliterated. I have not alliterated in this case. I haven't. I've just stayed with the most obvious, obvious language. I did start to do it and I thought I'm going to have to explain some of these words. I'm just going to stick with the with the easiest words. So engagement, retention, flexibility, communication and brand words. So engagement, retention, flexibility, communication and brand. So engagement. So we've started to talk to this already in terms of how are you engaging people, how are you setting goals, how are you helping them be creative, giving them autonomy and empowering them and, obviously, giving them enough resources, and engagement is so important.

Speaker 1:

Spirals are so important when it comes to engagement, because if you are in a value set, for example, that is blue, I'm going to use one that I wouldn't normally sit in and you're being communicated to all the time from, let's say, green or red. Yeah, so it's either go, go, go. Everybody just get out there and go and and act and get the sales, or it's orange. Um, you know we're going to be the best, we're going to win. We're going to be in, you know, fiji for a company work do. It's all going to be fabulous. People, people are going to be going. Oh, my god, that brand, they're the most amazing in the market. Fine, some people are going to be like, woohoo, yeah, I'm buying myself. See you in f, you in Fiji. See you in Fiji, can't wait. So proud, great.

Speaker 1:

But those people in blue are going to become more and more disengaged. I think they're going to become like rabbit caught in headlines, like the chaos of what's going on and eventually. But I thought last week we were talking about something different. Well, now we're doing this. Yeah, it can feel really discombobulating Absolutely Now from somebody in one of the hot colours and let's say you're running the organisation and you operate mainly from, let's say, orange kind of commercial win-win strategic networking. It won't make any sense to you why those people aren't engaged. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is so exciting. We're the best in the market. We're growing so quickly. You know we're the best in the market. We're growing so quickly. You know we've all got these bonuses and you know it's just. The sales are just pouring in.

Speaker 1:

But from a blue perspective, that where you're really driven by process and order and deadlines and organization, it's going to be consistency and predictability. Yeah, and that's that's why. That's why you're good at what you do, that's why you want to get up for work in the morning. That culture is going to be horrific. Now, that's not to say you don't want those elements in your culture. Well, that's what I was just going to say, this, phil, which it really makes me think of some of some organizational cultures where, of course, what is really wanted is predictability, reliability, making sure that we're on target, you know all of those pieces. But there's this underlying sense of the people that get valued are the people that are go get them, go get them. And we're kind of out there. So it can really demotivate when you're sitting there thinking, but what we really need is X, y, zyz procedure. Make sure we hit our targets.

Speaker 1:

Why is bob over there being flown over to vg? When I'm doing the spreadsheet? This is and I talk about this from a real sense, because you come from, you come from the blue, the accountancy, and and you know what, it's amazing I'm like hello, hello, we're doing it, we're keeping the whole thing afloat. Here we're literally down in the engine room. That is totally how it feels. But where's our awards ceremony? There's a photo of Bob surfing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, bob surfing with his golden trophy, because, you know, it makes me think of the Oscars, you know, because all of the engineers who keep those it's not that they don't have their awards ceremony, but we don't really see it, do we but you really really think about? Are you giving equal weight to those people who are absolutely hammering your scaffolding in? And every time somebody builds a new department with no scaffolding, they're up all through the night back backpedaling scaffolding to hold the whole thing up. I've done that, phil. Yeah, particularly in fast growth. You've. You're celebrating all this hot energy, these hot colors that are go, go, go, but you forget what it takes to keep that supported as it's growing so quickly. So it's to really think about engagement. Really look across your organization and you can almost use the spiral colors and think am I in some way having an award ceremony and specifically engaging and celebrating every single one of these colors?

Speaker 1:

In fact, I listened to a podcast today and it was kind of a last minute emergency shout out to the blues. Totally, it was a last minute emergency podcast, as so many podcasts are these days because news is moving so rapidly. But they'd clearly they'd clearly recorded it over the weekend or overnight, or you know something. The presenter, which was lewis goodall it was on the news agents he took a moment at the end to say I have got to thank all the people in the office who got this done, stayed late, stayed overnight, whatever it might be, and he listed them all out by name and I thought it's it's rare that that happens these days, because we don't even watch the credits at the end of films and shows and even radio shows anymore. So I loved that he did it and I thought I know those people and I know what they've been doing. Yeah, and without those people, you've got no scaffolding and you've got no fires being stoked in your boiler room and your ship will not go exactly.

Speaker 1:

So engaging, giving resources, giving enough to those people as well. So engagement, engagement, engagement, setting goals, giving space for creativity. It makes me think of schools. You know, we want schools to be really creative spaces and they've got to be really solid and consistent and all those things and and that can be the grunt work sometimes. Is it getting rewarded? I'm going to guess, not often enough.

Speaker 1:

Okay, retention I'm going to go fairly quickly over this one because it ties in with engagement. But really here and I think these are two brilliant words for spirals, security and opportunity. I think that's a really simple way to think about retention. How are you getting people on board? How are you attracting people to your organisation? Certainly from a sort of spiral culture sense.

Speaker 1:

You want to be communicating outwards and inwards, but you want to be hitting all of these value sets, to draw the very best in all those value sets towards you. And you can think about that through security and opportunity. Really easy, you can really easily hit all the colors through those two words. The security, you're gonna. You're gonna hit a lot of that blue and, to some extent, green in terms of community, yeah, and you're gonna hit in terms of opportunity. You want to make it personal for the reds. You want to make it big and bold and market you know best in market for the Orange. And then, in terms of that higher leadership you want to talk about, we are an integral, you know we're a big picture, big thinking, culture, big innovation, disruptive. You're going to hit those yellows. You're going to hit those much more forward thinking, bigger thinking leaders, so you can really quickly hit your retention.

Speaker 1:

There's one thing I will say on this, which is and I've had a conversation with one client about this specifically which is, of course, you probably do also want to look at the kind of demographic that you're trying to attract, because arguably, green is on the rise in terms of the younger generations and in terms of what they value, in terms of getting on board and what they're going to want to be doing, the language you give them is going to have to suit what absolutely their values, that they're going to come in with and that that may not be the same as the value set of the existing workforce. So that's a big watch out in terms of attraction and retention and this is why, from that yellow second tier perspective, as a leader, you really want that flex and flow, what we would call the improviser mindset, to be able to move between those colors, because you want to hold on to the people that you've got, possibly um, not always, but mostly and you also want to be attracting exactly that, the next generation, the next culture which leads us beautifully to the next word, which is flexibility, and that is more and more going to be a channel, a way of thinking to, to communicate the kind of culture, this kind of spiral culture. Well, again, I'll go back to a client conversation, client briefing. I was, I was doing yesterday and this was the number one word yeah, it was the number one word because it's no good anymore to be able to do the task that your department is supposed to do. It's not going to be enough anymore and it's that flexibility of a adapting to situations but be adapting to the communication as well. So it was the number one word that came up and I wonder how many people are actually going to start to use this word a lot more in terms of what's going to be important in their, in their workforce. Yeah, exactly, and it can feel really hard because you can feel like but this is how I do things and it's always worked Well, especially, especially as a founder or a long, a long server in an organization.

Speaker 1:

So the last two communication which we've sort of, which we've talked to, you know, are you available? Are you regular in your communication? Are you inspiring people and are you impactful? And, of course, from a Spirals perspective, are you communicating to all these colours? You've got the handout. There's no excuse now, okay. And then finally, brand Do you have a strong brand? This kind of takes us back to where we started that everybody can get behind Whatever their value set. That brand can get behind Whatever their value set, that brand can speak to them in some way. It's the best in the market, it's the most sustainable, it's the most exciting, it's the most reliable it could be, all of those things and that is going to get people behind it for different reasons. And really also making sure that your company reputation and what you actually do is aligned with the brand that you're portraying out there in the market as well, exactly because people know, people know, yeah, when there's a misalignment. So I want to talk about so that's the kind of overall, that's sort of five categories to think about creating culture.

Speaker 1:

As a leader, you want to be thinking about your own flex and flow. So this for us, is what I said earlier the improviser mindset. Can you traffic light? Can you spiral up and down the colours? If you're sitting in a meeting room with salespeople, can you meet them where they're at? If you go then to HR or you go to accounts, can you meet them where they're at in terms of the way that you communicate, and that means physically and verbally. So I would change my body language. I'd use much more kind of structured body language. You know there are three things. I've kind of moved my hand in three way, three sort of chops to the air. That's a nice way to communicate to blues if I'm communicating to the kind of research team or the innovators, and my hands are going to get much more kind of cloudy in the air, like, let's think, big picture, so you can use the language that you use and your body language flex and flow, move up and down if you're in a meeting with lots of people traffic light everywhere, subsections now this is the sort of holacracy it's a word that's used a lot. Zappos was very well known for um using holacracy.

Speaker 1:

Whole foods another good example and this is really about giving autonomy, and this is where the spirals from that second tier, that yellow position really is the kind of where where things are going, that networked hub that you're not. You haven't got that top-down structure. You really have got much more these hubs, these sections that are much more autonomous. So a really good example was whole foods. It was an early adopter of spirodynamics and people were empowered within their own shops to make their own decisions. Often it's very, very customer focused, like zappos, because that means that everyone's clear on what the goal is and how we get there. We don't have to go up to management to try to make those decisions. We can be empowered here to be customer facing and serve the business as best we can. So the story from Whole Foods was you know, the electricity went out one time and in that particular store the decision was made on the floor to give all the customers at that moment the produce that they had in their bags. They could have it for free and they could make that decision because we can't use the tills, we can't process anything. Zappos was very well known for being very, very customer focused, really, really empowering subsections and teams to do whatever they felt they needed to do. The word they used in one of their 10 company values were, in fact, their first company value was to make it wow for customers. Yeah, so that, so that then you and I we might be management or we might be on the shop floor, kind of thing. Yeah, but we know our job, whether you're the council, whether you are in sales, is to make it well for the customer.

Speaker 1:

I don't know if it was Ken Wilber or if it was in a different book or paper that I read that used the human body as a really good example of holacracy, and the fact that the human body operates on a holocratic system is indicative, really, of how we should be operating as a society, as a system. Indicative, really, of how we should be operating as a society, as a system. So if you think about the human body, a cell operates as a cell individually in your body. Of course it also operates as part of a much bigger, bigger liver or a heart, exactly, but on its own it operates. Similarly, a kind of a molecule or a structure of amino acids knows how to operate on its own. It's still part of a bigger, a bigger structure, and you can just keep pushing out. You know, an organ can operate on its own. It knows what it's doing, it doesn't have to ask the heart, you know. Yeah, but then the whole body as a system also also operates. So it's like mini systems within a bigger system. That's exactly right, operating doing the bit they need to do independently, but also operating as part of a bigger system. That's exactly right. But there's the autonomy within that. So exactly that a cell can't do what a heart does, but a. But a heart can't live without a cell.

Speaker 1:

So it's it's it's redefining how we think of hierarchy. Yeah, it's not better or worse, it's all necessary. It's relational in a holographic, like you say, in a holon upon holon. Yeah, it's relational. We it's interdependent, but it's how, as a body, if you like, how our consciousness is the system operator exactly of this whole system, exactly. We're not going. Well, my foot, my left foot's, better than my right hand, or, more important, it's, that's not the, that's not the paradigm, and it's a really, it's a really good kind of analogy to think about how inefficient lots of hierarchical structures are because each individual holon is not really empowered to do what it it knows intelligently that it can do it's. You know, this is real systems thinking that the intelligence is within the system and and in the in the holons within the system. That's exactly right.

Speaker 1:

Well, you know, get me started on society. You know you could be a billionaire, but at some point, if you get ill, you need the nurse and you need the janitor. So, anyway, that's a whole other conversation. So, subsections, holding everybody, so all voices count. You, as a systems leader, you need all. Every voice is a voice of the system. There are messages even in the grumbly complainer in the corner means something. They're saying something about the system. I really do like that and this is this also is really important to think about when we think about difficult conversations, which is so top of mind for us at the moment, in that it's really easy to kind of point the finger at somebody and say you didn't do your bit, or you, you should have said that, or. And then there may be obviously there are sometimes behaviors that are unacceptable Absolutely, and very often people's behaviors are happening because of the system that they are in and what's working and what's not working. So it's a really good point that, even if we find somebody's behavior or feedback challenging, what's the message they're trying to tell you about the system Absolutely, because what a systems thinker and leader doesn't do is say them and us yeah, it's all the system, yeah, it's all within it and it's all meaningful and it's all got messages Getting people to a healthy version of their value set.

Speaker 1:

Yes, so I love this, I absolutely love this and, like we've mentioned before, it's virtually impossible to get people to develop and grow if it based on the current value set that they're in. They have a tendency to sit on the unhealthy. If they do, if they do on the unhealthy or negative side of that, yeah, we get locked in, don't we? Yeah, so for let's imagine that you have quite a blue value set and you think things should be done in a certain way If you constantly get pushback from people that you're wrong or you shouldn't do it like that, or they're not going to follow your procedures, you're much more likely to dig in deeper and you know there's going to be conflict, all sorts of things. But you're going to dig in deeper with your belief about how those processes are so fundamental yeah, things. But you're going to dig in deeper with your belief about how those processes are so fundamental, yeah, if, on the other hand, somebody is appreciative of those processes and kind of works with you and also helps encourage you to use the best of those processes to make it really helpful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so these, you know these three parts. Yeah, I loved it when you put, when you structured that email like that, that really helped me. Or that table you did well. I love the fact that you did a really short table, exactly. So, in fact, I'm wondering if these other processes could be a bit more like that. So we're shifting people into the kind of healthy side of their value sets so that, a they can all work better with each other and, b, that you've got a chance then of getting people into that growth and into the flex and flow, because it's hard to get into the growth and flex and flow from the unhealthy side of the value. Absolutely, you want red action? Let's do. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna make this feeling appreciated, feeling fabulous. You don't want red saying I'm not doing it like that, I'm doing it my way, I'm not working with you, exactly Okay, improvisation we've talked about, so I think that's really a mindset, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's really about listening to everything that's going on in the system and building on what you're being offered, regardless of what value set of people are coming from and I love what you say, pen, and we talk about this a lot at 4D. What and we talk about this a lot at 4D what is the gift? Always a gift. There's always a gift, even in the toughest moments, there is a gift and that's the improviser mindset. What, in this situation, what in this conversation, can we use to build and make work and move forward and co-create, even if you've got somebody who's in a value set that you don't particularly align with or appreciate or you find it challenging. If they are engaging with you, even if it's in a conflictual way, they care, yeah, there's something underneath that they care about, they want something to move forward or change, and there's always a gift. You just gotta find it.

Speaker 1:

You know what that makes me think of on a really personal level? It makes me think of the the Gottman institute work of them. They predicted which marriages would succeed and fail. Yeah, and it's the people who turn away, yeah, from each other that fail. And if they turn towards, even if they turn towards in disagreement, they've turned towards. And that's what you want in the improv mindset. Let's come on. What have we got? Let's talk about this. I know we're coming from very different colors and let's see what we can mush out here. Yeah, okay, super.

Speaker 1:

So that is a really quick whiz through some ways to think about a spiral culture. What you can do. I think one of the main things to remember is, if you know that you've got a certain colored lens, if you know you've got a kind of more dominant color, the big, big, big one for you is to really, really be aware of not getting stuck in that totally, of keep pulling out and seeing the multi-color perspective, because it can be really tempting to think, to get caught in what our own value sets and that feeling right and us feeling like people who are coming from our value set are the right ones. So you've got to keep. You've almost got a helicopter up like we talk about in 4d. Helicopter up, get intentional, yeah. Don't get caught in the in the boxing ring. Pull up, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I and I would say, do that first. You know that that piece I mean, even when you're talking about culture change, holding the mirror up first and recognising your value set and you know, awareness about how you're operating is your absolute first port of call. After that, of course, spiral Dynamics is incredibly useful in terms of, like we said, mapping where your culture is and mapping where you want it to be, and then using Spiral Dynamics and communication and the engagement piece to bridge to be, and then using spiral dynamics and communication and the engagement piece to bridge between to move people forward. So there's so many applications of it. Yeah, so you've got a handout, got three podcasts on this and do get in touch if you would love to hear more. We love working with spiral dynamics and we are always available to talk to you about spiral culture. And listen, phil, if I can have a cat in my house all summer, anybody can flex and flow with Spiral Dynamics and we are always available to talk to you about spiral culture. And listen, phil. If I can have a cat in my house all summer, anybody can flex and flow Anything's possible.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the 4D Human being Podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Do take on board some of the insights, tools and tips, because every time that you try something new to get back to choice, you are making a vote for the you that you want to become and I love that phrase, pen, I do too and please do share this episode with somebody that you know would really benefit from the lessons and learnings we've been chatting about today. And, of course, if you're interested in more from 4D Human being, do get in touch. We run workshops, trainings, online in-person conference events and keynotes. We've got the 4D On Demand platform for your whole organisation and we do have a free Essentials membership where anybody can sign up for absolutely free to access some of our insights, tools and tips. So do get in touch with us if you'd like to hear more. We cannot wait to hear from you and to carry on the conversation.