4D Human Being Podcast

Mastering the Interview Conversation

• 4D Human Being • Season 4 • Episode 46

Share episode

Have you ever left an interview wishing you'd been more concise, more engaging, or simply more yourself? You're not alone. 

In part two of our interview skills series, we're back exploring advanced interview techniques. We move beyond the basics to uncover the psychological dynamics and communication strategies that separate good candidates from truly memorable ones.

At its core, the perfect interview isn't an interrogation but a collaborative conversation where both sides are evaluating fit and potential. We reveal why many candidates unconsciously fall into parent-child dynamics during interviews and provide practical techniques to maintain adult-to-adult conversations that showcase your authentic professional self.

Conciseness emerges as perhaps the most critical skill, with our "Three Things" technique offering a simple framework to structure responses without boring your interviewers with chronological life histories. We explore the Integral Map method that helps you balance perspectives between "I" (your experience), "you" (the interviewer's needs), "we" (collaborative future), and "it" (the role/organisation) – ensuring you're not trapped in self-reference.

Whether you're early in your career or interviewing for executive positions, these techniques will transform how you prepare, engage, and follow up after interviews. The relationships you build during this process might lead to opportunities far beyond the specific role you're discussing today. Ready to shift from simply answering questions to creating meaningful professional connections? This episode is your masterclass.

Speaker 1:

Hello, my name is Philippa Waller, my name is Penelope Waller and we are two of the directors at 4D Human being. And welcome to the 4D Human being podcast. What's it all about, pen? It's all about your personal and professional relationships. It's about your communication skills, how you lead, how you work and build teams, how you are looking after yourself and your well-being, and how you are much more at choice. What do we mean by that? Well, sometimes we can get a little caught in patterns in life and we can all be a little bit on our automatic pilot. So 40 human being is all about helping us get back to choice and being a four-dimensional human being, and your fourth dimension, of course, is intention. So, whether it's about your impact, your leadership style, your team dynamics, whether it's about your well-being, whether it's about your communication or your presentation skills anything that involves human beings interacting with other human beings 40 Human being are here to help. We're going to take a deep dive and look at some tools, insights, theories that are going to help you go from a 3D human doing to a 4D human being, so that you can happen to the world rather than the world simply happening to you.

Speaker 1:

Hello, and welcome to the second part of Interview Skills. Yeah, we love this topic. We're going to try and make it not a sort of three-hour podcast. It won't be a three-hour podcast, we'll make it our usual length of time, but boy could we speak about this for a long time. That is a real theme for me this week as we prepare our next 4D On Demand series. Conciseness real theme for me this week as we prepare our next 4D on demand series. Yeah, because because two things on it one is how much we're passionate about the research and the potential tools and what you can do and there's so many things you can do. But also, secondly, if I flip that as I research topics, the books or videos that just go on and on and on and have so many different perspectives and takes and ideas and things to think about.

Speaker 1:

This really, yeah, but you just I you cannot use that no in an interview when you're stressed. Well, I think interviews are the absolute time where you really don't want to over prepare like you really want to get interesting, controversial. Well, because you know, usually they are somewhere between 30 and 60 minutes. Often there's a panel, so you've got potentially four people in a room for 45 minutes doing an interview that realistically, if you think about the amount of content you can share in that time, you do not want to over prepare based on your 20-year career, like that is danger. So I'm gonna, yes, and that with a, with a, what we think preparation is, because it's not that you don't want to prepare really well, it's that you don't want to prepare three hours of content when no one needs to know that I know well, as as we said on the last podcast, I mean this sounds really mean and I don't.

Speaker 1:

I don't mean it literally, but there's a grain of truth in it, which is does anybody really want to sit and listen to your life for an hour? Do you know what that reminds me of? I know it's an interview and it is about you, but still it's like being at a dinner party, having someone talk to you for an hour about themselves. Yeah Well, these are the challenging questions that we could ask ourselves, because this came up again in the 4DOD series, that we're preparing a new managing conflict series, and questions like does anybody actually want to listen to me for an hour? Secondly, do people really am I really likable? Am I really likable? Thirdly, which this came up in the managing conflict for all of our step in, have the conversation, or you know why aren't people having the conversation with me? Am I actually approachable? Yeah, good question, all of these things. So do people really want to hear two hours of your knowledge? And just bear in mind, so I might think I am endlessly fascinating.

Speaker 1:

Penelope, I, I think the same. You know, amusing, entertaining, I don't. Your winter nights must just fly by on your own. I mean, it must be like, it must be like going to the best inner part. It's the oscar wilde, isn't it? You know the beginning. You know, falling in love with yourself is the beginning of a beautiful romance, that actually, you've got everything wrapped up in just you, at home, exactly. But you, you, just you just have to take a step back. You haven't got a problem with self esteem. Step back and really, really ask the question do you think these people in front of you are as fascinating in you as you are? So, if, if, it ever comes into your head, oh, I must also remember to tell them that, and also remember to tell them that if I was you, I would slam on the brakes. I'm not sure they know that I'm a ballroom dancer. I must, I must get that in. Yeah, I would treat it more like a dinner party, like if you think about the perfect dinner party guest. They do not drone on about themselves, no, and in fact they answer your question in an interesting way and integrate it into what you care about. Pass the old baton. Exactly, it's a relay. Yeah, we'll get there.

Speaker 1:

So this second part. I'm going to say the word advanced, but I don't really mean that, because it's not sort of complex. You know advanced, but we are going to move it on to perhaps beyond how you're sitting and your posture and those very foundational tools in interview skills. And also, you know, getting through the ATS, as we all hear about now, the automatic tracking system with keywords, all of those things you've just got to know. There's no getting around it. This is right. Actually, what are some different perspectives that break open? How people, usually quite wading through mud, drudgingly prepare for interviews. Actually, what are much better ways to prepare for interviews? And I want to add to this that you, at the moment, are so hot on this topic. Oh, my goodness it is. You are living and breathing this with so many people at the moment.

Speaker 1:

You know it is one of my favorite things, and the reason for this is they are these little sort of mini moments in life where everything comes together in terms of comms, communication, personal development, psychology, your, your, your attitude with hierarchy, the fears that we have about approval, just everything. It's just like it's like. It's like this melting pot and and, in fact, as I was thinking about this, this podcast, I thought it's. It's a bit like life on steroids, because a lot of people, certainly in the business world, feel like they're in a sort of ongoing interview or some ongoing test, and so in an actual interview, it's like this sort of pressure cooker of not only are you being, we talk about, oh, I don't want to be judged In an interview.

Speaker 1:

That is what you're there for. You are there to be judged, but not really. It's also what we do as human beings. It's also what we do as human beings. So it's like this pressure cooker example of how a lot of people feel, the expectation they feel every day. And you really are being judged, and you're not just being judged on your knowledge and your experience. You are being judged on who you are like. There's no getting, it's true, it's who you are. It's true, isn't it? It's true, and there's a couple of things I would like to say, sort of in advance of getting into the actual kind of tangible nitty gritty, because we really want to get very tangible in this episode, always, always.

Speaker 1:

But there's two things I would say in advance of that. So one is, like we said on the last podcast, ideally you will have already formed the foundation in terms of the relationships and the brand that you have and the network that you've created, so that it You're not going in cold. You're not going in cold, yeah, like who are you and nobody knows you? Yeah, and ideally people are kind of asking you, inviting you to come to the interview. So all of that work is a kind of a separate thing that we've spoken about. We'll still speak about more. We will caveat that with early in career, but yeah, which, which can be tricky. The second thing actually, you mentioned early career before. I mentioned the second thing.

Speaker 1:

So early in career, where you don't really know the network, you do want to find those cheats that make it feel like you do you already know that you're in. So there are lots of things you can do on this, right up until the last moment. I'm going to give you a really nice little secret tip as you walk in in the room even you can still do it. So you can link on social media, you can research. Even if you don't feel that you can connect with them. Or even if you can't connect with them because they're too high up and they have that wall on somewhere like LinkedIn, they can still see that you've looked at them. You could comment on one of their posts, so you can do lots online to almost start that relationship.

Speaker 1:

Use linkedin. I mean I know we sort of bang on about it, but it's there to show you where your connections are. And if you've got a connection who's connected to or two away, use it. Right to them, get connected I mean get introduced to them. Or whether you've got an internal company platform if you're already in an organisation. But LinkedIn is probably the best one. If you're looking for work for the first time or it's a different organisation, a friend of a friend works at the company in a totally different department, it doesn't matter. Use it. Go and have a conversation with that person so that you can talk about that when you go into the interview. But there are so, so many ways to already be connected. Read some of those posts that people from the organisation, even if you're not even sure who's interviewing you, although hopefully you are read some of the posts so that when you go in you can mention oh, I saw that there was a community day and I love the photos and I'm so into that.

Speaker 1:

Put some soil in your flower bed. Put some soil in your flower bed, some soil in your flower bag, exactly, and fertilize it exactly. And another thing you can do, which I used to talk about with audition technique for drama school students when you go into the room we talked about this last time you definitely don't want to go in. Oh, hello, it's me, we. That's in the last podcast. Because it's exciting for you and it's nerve-wracking for you and for you it's the first time. And oh, my goodness, here I am. I'm in the room For them. You're just another person walking in. But here's something you can do in that moment as you walk in the room and make eye contact with them at the door, smile, close the door, look at the chair or wherever you're going to sit we talked about this and move it so that that's your chair, sit down and look at them again and smile and say hello, because that's the second time you've met them, because you already met them at the door and psychologically, that genuinely does something you've already. As you've walked in, you've made eye contact and said hello, take your eye contact away as you navigate your way around furniture and then you reconnect your eye contact and that is the second time you've met them. You are old friends, exactly exactly so.

Speaker 1:

The first thing is, you know, think of this about putting some soil in the flower bed, which which we've spoken about and we'll definitely speak about. Do you think gardening metaphors are going to increase as we get older? I think they might well. We've got a good one for feedback as well, but we're not doing that today. Uh, the second thing I would say, which we won't go into today, but the second thing to say, is about the, the kind of psychological attitude, probably subconscious, that you have taken into interview situations, and for this we would reference transactional analysis, because an interview is a really, really brilliant example of as an adult.

Speaker 1:

You are effectively going into a situation that was very familiar to you as a child. So, whether that was having a chat with a teacher, having an exam, being called to the headmaster's office, go and see your father. So it's the hierarchical situations that are very embedded in our young cells and so, of course, the danger is because of that context and because of what your brain will subconsciously recognise. The danger is of that context and because of what your brain will subconsciously recognize, the danger is, of course, that you go to your childlike state and the other person is the sort of parent or hierarchy or boss, so, and then, and then we've entered into the interview situation, not, yeah, not on an adult to adult conversational context. We've entered into it as a child parent. So, and that is a whole other way in terms of how you'll show up, yeah, so, for anyone who doesn't know the transactional analysis model, really simply it's got three sort of layers to it Parent, adult, child. Some people call it the PAC model Parent, adult, child.

Speaker 1:

And, as Penelope described, a little bit like the drama triangle, another model, when somebody adopts a certain role, and this is not an actual role. You don't have to be a parent to adopt the parent role. If I say to Penelope now, come on, penelope, did you bring your notes for this podcast, exactly, or? Oh, penelope, well done you. You did incredible, which we quite like, that, which we quite like that. So you've got the nurturing parent, but you've also got the critical parent. I'm I'm not going to tell you this again and of course we're used to the critical parent, sometimes in that sort of more head of master, yes, exactly, exactly so.

Speaker 1:

And the danger is of going we'll get to that. But the danger is you start to impose that onto your um interviewers so you can inadvertently take on the flavor of a role. You, you could become the child. Oh, hello, I must be good, I must, yeah, I must be good, I must be some slightly subservient. Yes, where would you like me to start? Is this okay? Is this okay, you tell me? Or it might be the, you might get defensive as the child, or you might become the rebellious child. Well, I did, I, yes, no, I did check your company out before I can.

Speaker 1:

So, and what happens with transactional analysis is if somebody else takes the role. So let's say, for example, you walk in and even if you've prepared yourself to get into a level playing field adult to adult role if one of the interviewers says oh, did you, did you manage to find your way here? I know it can be a bit complicated. The challenge is when somebody else takes a role, unconsciously, if we're not awake to it, it pulls you into the opposite role and and this is what we work with in therapy you, you get put there because the demand is, if somebody takes the parent role, there must be a child, otherwise it doesn't work exactly. So but we don't realize it's happening. We don't realize it's happening.

Speaker 1:

So, or they might say, or you might take the child role and say is it okay if I say okay? And then they'll tell and then they'll have to take care of you, yeah. Then they go oh, yes, no, it's okay, don't worry now. Now you're off and you've put them into the role of you need to take care of me because I'm a bit nervous. And that's what I mentioned about the doorway. If you come in all nervous, you are calling out to them take, go into parent role and take care of me because I'm nervous and you want to go in as an adult and even if you feel that they are critical parent or nurturing parent, you need to stay in adult role level playing. So I think we'll do a whole other podcast on this, in terms of what the model is, what it means for us when it shows up ways to kind of work around it and get back to adult. So we won't go into it now. Suffice to say, you'll have a worldview, yes, that there are the big people who are in control. Scary, scary. I must do a good job, I must demonstrate that you know, I know what I'm doing. So it's a bit of a watch out For now.

Speaker 1:

I guess the one thing I would say in terms of that is notice your intention when you go into the interview. What's sitting underneath your attitude and intention? Are you going in with curiosity, looking for an interesting conversation, excited to meet these people, or are you going in with fear, wanting to demonstrate that you're good enough, wanting to answer all the questions correctly? Those intentions and attitudes will also feed into the kind of role and position that you take. So that's the first thing to think about is set an intention. We'll do transactional analysis another time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I would also add to that you can do other things, thinking about the 4D model, four dimensions, two context. You can do other things like, for example, in the physical, you can dress one level up, yeah, so if you're going for a certain role, do you think well, it's a pretty, it's pretty casual, you know I'll go in sort of jeans and a jacket. It's a really good idea to get yourself into adult role. If you know that's a bit of a risk is dress up. So go one level up. So wear the suit or kind of you know, wear the designer, you know shirt that you've got, or you know the very sort of iron silk blouse, whatever it is that you that for you, is sort of like, oh, I feel like I'm going to a wedding, but actually it can help. All of these things can help shift you into adult because you're dressing more like, yeah, the big grown up.

Speaker 1:

And what you said as well about the physical is also really relevant. I know I said this on a podcast, I think years ago. I said it on this podcast where I remember going to parent teacher evenings as the parent and of course, the chairs in schools are really small kids in primary and elementary school and the teachers make you sit on them and they're on an adult chair and so you're sitting like this sort of small person behind their desk and they're on their chair and they've already put you into a situation of feeling like I had exactly the same with my first theatrical agent and they were sat around the room behind their desk, so it was like in an amphitheater, and I was put on this really low little, this marble chintzy chair not, it gets worse and then handed a cup of tea on a saucer oh my God, and a biscuit. So I'm now low down, trapped, trapped with props, one of which shows my nervous hand because it's shaking and you can't lift the cup. You can't lift the cup because you've got a biscuit in it.

Speaker 1:

I mean, it was absolute, you know, and they really did take on. I mean, bless them. They did sort of take on the pair, oh, you know, and they really did take on. I mean, bless them. They did sort of take on the power. Oh, you know, if you thought about your tea I mean, like you know, they sort of were, they were analyzing me for help Did you sink into the tea? I sank down into the tea and actually, if I look back on that, you know that is the moment where, even if you can't do anything about the chair, put the tea cup down, pop the biscuit down, sit forward on the chair and get your shoulders back or walk out of the room and come back in. But you know, because, because the room is happening to you, at that point you are not happening to the room. The props are happening to you, you know, if they. You know it's quite a good note if they offer you a cup of coffee and there's no table, and there's no table, and there's no table. Think about it. Think about it. It's really true. You know, unless you really feel like this is a belonging request, we're all having coffee. Are you one of us? Unless you sort of get the sense that it's going to be weird not to.

Speaker 1:

You're really making me think of some meetings I've been in in my life they're kind of flashing through my head now where the chair's not quite right yeah, so you're in, and you're in not in quite the right clothing, so you're trying to cross and uncross your legs to sit in a dignified way, and you've got files that you're looking at and they've given you a. It's just yeah, and then you've got a laptop and a cable. It's a nightmare. You have to. It's making my stomach tight as I think about it. You've really got to think about the geography and the physicality of the room, because it can suddenly become a tsunami nightmare, can't it? Where suddenly it's all props and furniture and cups of tea. So just really, really, anyway, we, we digress, yeah, but keep it simple, keep it, yes, okay. So so let's imagine that the props and the furniture is working out all fine, or your tech is fine, and you've gone in with a nice sort of confident, curious attitude. So we've done all the sort of yeah, you're in now.

Speaker 1:

So we're going to go into some specific techniques around questions, and I think the first thing we're going to speak about, which I think is probably going to be the number one, aside from the teacup madness, is conciseness. Yes, this has got to be the number one thing that I hear about a lot, both from interviewees and interviewers, because, of course, if you're going in, you know even a bit more, particularly actually at an executive level, you've got a lot to say. You know, if someone says, can you tell me a bit about your career? You've got like 20 years? Yeah, well, you certainly have, at a certain level, to explain. Yeah, so conciseness can be a real problem. Yes, and quite a lot of feedback that interviewees get is is around conciseness as well. So a couple of tips for conciseness. So one of these is a tool that we love, isn't it for that we, we use quite a lot, which is three things. So somebody says to you, can you tell me a bit about yourself?

Speaker 1:

So, instead of going back to 1995. None of us want to go back there, do we? I mean, do you know what One of my favourite philosophies for life is? None of us want to be judged on our younger selves, as Lord Grantham says in Downton Abbey. You know me, that's my basic, that's my Bible. We all have chapters that we'd rather not make public. Maybe 1995 was in that. But anyway, rather than go back to 1995 and start chronologically Although, can I now mention the dungarees that you're wearing, although that's probably late 80s, because I do think you're doing a great bananarama, I am doing a great bananarama.

Speaker 1:

Well, I tell you what it's working. I think we've come full circle. You sort of have gone back to 1995, haven't you? You realise how old you are. When fashions have come back into fashion, it's happened. We've absolutely hit the circle.

Speaker 1:

Anybody who doesn't know this band Banana-rama, look 1980s, sort of scruffy head, baggy trousers, dungarees. It was our era. We were allowed to have crazy curly hair. But I have to say about these dungarees is it's not the sort of item I would purchase for myself. It's more your sort of thing, I think. Sure, but my daughter wanted some dungarees and they're also frosted, which is a very that is, a very specific moment in time, isn't it? I mean, that was a short window. I mean, sometimes people went double frosted denim, didn't they? I mean it was madness. That was a short window, thank God. Anyway, I bought them for my daughter and she's so tall, she's got the most amazing legs, my daughter. So she did wear them, but she said, mummy, they're not going to work. So I got them. So I'm full Bananarama, phil.

Speaker 1:

Well, you're also at a stage where you're getting cast off from your own children. I just want to notice, as a company director, I mean, what's happened? I am, it's the only way I'm getting you. Yeah, keep up to date. That's a really easy way to keep up to date, isn't it passion wise? Anyway, we are giving advice on dressing upwards for was for interviews. So not frosted dungarees for interviews, unless, unless you are, unless you are interviewing for a remake of bananarama, in which case definitely fine, fine.

Speaker 1:

So, going back to the question, if someone says, tell me a bit about yourself, let's not go back to 1995, even though I kind of have today. Yes, you can answer chronologically. It's quite a common way to. Can I just say that if somebody said, if I said to someone, can you tell me a bit about yourself? And they say, well, I graduated, I'm, I graduated in 1985, I'm already going. Please no, please no, we cannot, we cannot start there. Please tell me. Please tell me. That's about to link to something last year. Please it. It's like it's like. It's like it's like not knowing how many sites there are on a presentation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you're thinking am I gonna get out of this room anytime before christmas? And do you know what this? This leads me into some brilliant research. This is absolutely true, and it's in. Some of this research is done on prison parole boards. You, you are much, much worse off if your parole interview is just before lunch and they're hungry. So you do not. I mean, if you're going in for an interview at 11.30, you don't want to start your sentence with in 19.85, because they're already thinking it's nearly lunchtime and if you then keep them waiting for lunch, their body chemistry is going to not be in your favor. No, the cortisol has kicked off, hasn't it? The nervous system has been triggered. They're not really listening to you, they're just disliking you.

Speaker 1:

So my offer would be it's not my favorite way to answer a question going chronologically through the cv, partly because they've had your cv, partly because, like we've just said, they're thinking, crikey, how long have I got to sit here for? Yeah, I'm not saying this is the right way to answer. One option would be let me start by saying three things that I'd love to share about, about myself, and then you're giving more kind of umbrella overview pieces about you. So the first thing to say is that throughout my career, I've been really focused on yeah, whatever, it might be leadership, whatever. The second thing I would say is that you're giving some some real kind of clear, focused pieces around yourself. I do often say as well, it's good to have three things that you're focused on in the interview. So it might be you really want them to walk away knowing that you're really focused on people, leadership, development. Secondly, you're really focused on delivering results. Thirdly, you're really focused on innovation and growth, whatever those three things are.

Speaker 1:

I would probably start talking about myself and my history in those three buckets. Yeah, you know, just talk about, for example, when I was at x company. I did this so I'd give some. I'd give a concise structure. If they want more, they'll ask. They'll ask for more. So that's one, and in fact you've just given them the menu, and what will happen is that there'll be something that they pick up on, there'll be something that they're particularly interested in, or there's something that they've got in common with you, that they've just heard, which will pique their interest.

Speaker 1:

So they can then choose, and it could also be chronological. So, for example, you could say that. So the first thing I would say is that even as a child and as a student, my real passion was X. And the second thing I would say is I really demonstrated that and learned blah, blah, blah in the second part of my career. And then the third thing I would say is most recently I've been focused on X and I'm interested in. So you can do it chronologically, just don't start with the whole CV.

Speaker 1:

And either way, when you're using three things, whether you're doing a kind of past, present, future, or you're doing the three kind of key things that might have happened in your life, or three key achievements you've had at work, or three key jobs you're already telling your brain. We are not doing an autobiography of an hour. You're already telling your brain this is the short start. So we're going to go in with the golden nuggets and they can ask for more information if they want. This is something else that we talk a lot about with coaching clients. Do not throw a bunch of rocks at people with one golden nugget in it and hope that they they're going to be bothered to find it. You just give them the golden nugget. You know, or qualities as well. You could do so.

Speaker 1:

There's there's three things I would, yeah, myself. Yeah, I am very resilient, I am, yeah, very empathic. Yeah, I'm gonna give you results, doing whatever it might. I'm gonna give you a cheat on that. If you're thinking, but there's so many things I want to say about myself, there's a nice phrase that you can use. So if you say, well, there's, you know.

Speaker 1:

There's three things that I'd really love to talk to you about. Number one having been an actor and a an improviser and then moved into psychotherapy, I became a company director and I set up my own company, 40 Human being. Now, what you've done in that is said once. But with that little having been, you can actually give quite a lot in the background. You can't make it too long but you kind of double down. So you might say, well, having done my PhD in X, y or Z, I did some amazing research at my last company and that led to this paper and actually that product development. But you've, but with the having done, you've kind of bedded in some extra things so you can have a little bit of extra wiggle room. But be careful, because our brains cannot absorb that much information, cannot absorb that much information.

Speaker 1:

The other reason that it's quite good to use the three things and really think about answering questions such as tell me a bit about yourself, is, of course, the temptation can be to go back to the CV. And they've got your CV, so I'd be really careful about what you think they want. The second option I would give in terms I mean just to finish on that is think qualities. You know there's so much research that was done. I mean a decade ago reed did some research around. We are not the employment is not happening anymore on ability. It's happening on mindset, it's happening on the type of person you are. They can teach you about their organization and about the particular tasks you've got to do, or the particular systems and processes or whatever strategies that they will have, but mindset, mindset, mindset which is about qualities. You know, having having been an actor and an improviser, you know I absolutely love work that is quite fast, moving, surprising and unexpected. I thrive in fast, rapid change. Yeah, that's what they, that's what they want to know. Yeah, the second option there's lots of different ways to to answer questions in terms of conciseness. The second one that I really like is to think about your answer in two parts, because for some of us, it can be really challenging to get concise about all of the amazing achievements that we've done and how excited we are about things we could do in their organisation. So what I would offer is think in two parts, so give the headline answer.

Speaker 1:

So somebody says Tell me a bit about yourself. Well, let me start by saying that most of my career has been in the field of research and development or engineering, and I've worked at X for 10 years and here for five years. My current focus is in this area, which I absolutely love, and blah Stop and then say there's loads more I could talk to about that, and I've got some examples of where I really demonstrated these skills and I brought some value to the company. Would you like to hear more or would you like me to carry on? So kind of check here give a one minute headline check in. I've got some more I could share. Shall I carry on or is there a different question you'd like to ask me? So use navigation, yeah, to understand how much they want from you for each question and it's a bit like. It's a bit like how we talk in um.

Speaker 1:

Our presentation skills work is shift from the idea of presentation to conversation that they are there. Find those moments where you can say you know, as you'll know, it's been a very particular time over the last five years, what with covid and, of course, ai coming in rapidly. From our perspective, where I've been, this know it's been a very particular time over the last five years, what with COVID and, of course, ai coming in rapidly. From our perspective, where I've been, this is how it's impacted us. You know I'd love to hear more, of course, how it's impacting you and bring my skills to help you also drive forward. They're also in the culture, they're in the market. They've been experiencing things that you'll be talking about. You can find those touch points. You know there's a lot of people who are struggling at the moment with such rapid change. Why and I'm sure you're experiencing it here something that I'm really passionate about is really helping people through that.

Speaker 1:

I love that work and that's because of my psychology background. Whatever it is, but bring them into the conversation. It's those bridges, isn't it, that we love? And it's the same at the dinner party. You know the person droning on about sort of I don't know, you know diamond mining in south africa or whatever it is that we've got no connection with. Yeah, if you bring a connection to it, you know, I noticed all you've got that lovely engagement ring. Do you know where that's from, or whatever it might be. But find the connections, because that's what engages people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and this second option around being concise, so giving the headline and then kind of checking in do they want some more? It does kind of speak to the transactional analysis model that we spoke to at the beginning, which is very often we'll go into an interview thinking they'll ask me a question, I'll answer it well, and then they'll ask me another question, which it can be true, but you can also take part in the navigation of the conversation, so you don't really know how much information they want from you. They might want 30 seconds, they might want five minutes. So anything you can do to gauge it, understand it, clarify that process, there's no reason why you can't say let me give you the short answer first and then I'm very happy to go into some more detail. There's no reason why you can't say let me give you the short answer first and then let's you know I'm very happy to go into some more detail. There's no reason you can't do that. It's so true, I mean.

Speaker 1:

The other thing about that is I remember sitting in very particular. It was a very particular set of interviews for a mental, a secure mental health unit, and they were interviewing for a new member of staff. I think it was a. You know it was a more junior psychiatrist. I can't remember exactly what the role was, but I was sat, I was doing some work experience there and I was as I was training in my psychotherapy training and it really highlighted what hard work it is for an interviewer. He loves your rug. He would not pass an interview if he walked, if he went in like that. You can see him. He's having a. Yeah, don't take a pet into an interview, there's nothing, um, but it really highlighted how hard work it was for the person interviewing when there's two things on this when firstly it was a question and then it was like an exam answer and they just had to find the answer and stop and then you pick up the next question, because you never get the flow. If it's not a conversation and then there's not a connection, then there's not a connection.

Speaker 1:

And the second thing on that is that increasingly, when you get into that mode, it does start to feel like a test. Yeah, and therefore I remember there was an applicant who couldn't, you know, she obviously got brain fog in it, like the adrenaline was up, the cortisol was up and she couldn't think of an answer and because there was nothing to fall back on, because there's no relationship formed that it was just silence, silence, yeah, absolute silence. So she's sort of grappling for the answer and nobody's got anything to hold on to at that point, because you've got no, you've got no relational bridge, whereas if you've talked about something else, one of you can pick up on that. You know, or you know, I don't know if you've mentioned the fact that you were. You know, you both happen to like use my example, ballroom dancing. You've got something to grab onto there and say, I don't know about you, but this happened to me once in a dance competition. You know, you've got something, which brings me on to the second piece that we want to mention. So that's a couple of things on conciseness.

Speaker 1:

The second thing to think about when you're answering questions is the integral math, and by that we mean think of a grid with four boxes and in each of them is a pronoun I, you, we and it and think about that as a kind of a multi-perspective lens that you're thinking about yourself, the other person, the collective or pam, and then the role or the organisation is the it. Now, of course, when we're in an interview, we are thinking about our own CV, our own experience, doing well, telling them what we've done. We are pushing ourselves into the iBox and the questions we get will also push us into the iBox. Tell me about you, tell me what your experience is. We've got to be really careful to spread our answers right across that integral map. So, first of all, let me tell you a bit about myself and, as you will probably experience in your organization or as you've already said. So we're going to you and I'd love to hear more about yeah. And then we go a little bit into the we. So I can see that what's important to us. I've read your company values, what's really important to us? I've, you know, I've read your, your company values. What's really important to us and the team that I would run in your organization is x and then the. It would be in this role or for your organization or the growth that it wants, whatever it might be. So you need to kind of move around that integral map and talk from all the perspectives. If we get stuck in the eye box it can be a bit dreary.

Speaker 1:

And that third one, both the you and the we, I mean they're all really powerful. But the you is what we just talked about. You want those touch points, the we, which we'll come more to when we look at powerful questions, when they ask you, have you got any questions which so many people say no to? It's such an opportunity and it's such an opportunity to already be talking in the we. Yeah, when we, you know if we, when we, if we think about how we would work together, all of those kind of you are already painting. I mean, think about what you're doing to their brain, to their mirror neurons. You know their sort of stimulus, their imagination. They're already imagining you in the role because you're using the we language, so it's incredibly powerful. It's what we call running ahead. Is you want to start moving yourself and them into the future of you working with them? Exactly? Rather than I'm over here, you're over there. I'm going to tell you all about myself and cross my fingers that you'll want to drag me over to your world. I'm going to already talk about our world exactly, which takes us on to the third tip we're going to give you. So we've got concise this, we've got the are you, we it? Integral map of perspectives in your answer.

Speaker 1:

The third thing I would say is absolutely that future and positive focus. So one of the pitfalls we can fall into when we get asked questions is that the question can be asked to us in the historic past tense. So what experience have you got? What did you do in your last role? So we're automatically going backwards, yes, and whilst we need to address the question and do a little bit of that, we really want to get forward as quickly as we can. Yeah, so grab, grab something and run ahead. Grab something and run ahead. So, yes, absolutely, when I was at this company, I was responsible for xyz and what I learned and what I, what I'm really excited to bring to this company, would be xyz. So push it forward as good as you can. So I always say to clients positive future focus. Yeah, we'll talk about challenging questions in a minute. Pff, pff, what's your future focus? Not without addressing the question, but again, think of think of your answers on a sort of time spectrum continuum.

Speaker 1:

If you've answered a question fully in the past, I would be kind of raising a slight red flag. Yeah, that's, that's so brilliant, that's so lovely. You're exactly. You're really almost like setting a sort of super intention. Yeah, as we would really almost like setting a sort of super intention. Yeah, as we would talk about in acting, a sort of super intention of everything that you have, everything that you are is pointing towards all of the amazing things that you're going to do with them. Yeah, and a really specific one on this, which again is another technique that I use. So I'll do interview skill practice and ask lots of questions what? The one thing that is so often missing is the, so that at the end of a sentence so I've done this, I've done that, I've delivered this, I've delivered that. End of answer. Yeah, yeah, I've given you my medal rack. Yes, yeah, I need to, so that I need, so that what this means, what I bring, I bring what I'm excited for the company. So I would always think at the end of a question you've given a great answer so that I can bring this to organisation, what I can do with the team.

Speaker 1:

It's like advertising, isn't it? If you're trying to sell a children's toothpaste to adults, you don't just say, oh, this is an amazing toothpaste and it's got X percentage of calcium and it's got a shiny package. They want percentage of calcium and it's got, you know, a shiny package. They want to know so that your kids are going to want to clean their teeth and have the healthy healthy. But you've.

Speaker 1:

It's the meaning making and if we go back to the brain, quads, fact finding, organizing, improvising, meaning making. You want a very, very strong focus on the meaning and I think, if we think about that model, it's really interesting for interviews because most of us are thinking about the fact finding. Am I telling them all the facts about my history? Am I making sure I'm bringing to life every bullet point on that CV, and actually what they want to know is what does it mean for you to be working for our company? Yeah, exactly, exactly. So that's the other thing to think about.

Speaker 1:

So so far, we've got four things to think about. We've got conciseness, we've got the integral map of perspective, which is also the language that you use, the iue, yeah, which is also the language. We've also got really think about answering both in the past, but also that positive I love that pff, it's a thing and then the. The fourth thing, which is very linked to that, is the. So that what, yeah, what does meaning? What does that bring? What does that mean for you? This is not just about my past. This is about our collective future together.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and you can also think about that as look, I've got this birthday sack of gifts which is amazing and I will bring them to you. Which will mean what? Yes, you are going to open this sack and you're going to get all of this which is going to change your life in this way. Yeah, sort of thinking like that isn't exactly. These aren't just nice gifts that I have oh, look at me enjoying my lovely gifts they're gifts that are going to change your life exactly, and beautiful segue there, phil, because I'm going to take that word gift and give the kind of fifth tip which is around challenging questions, and there's always always a gift, now, not every meaning the challenging question that they would ask you. Yes, we're gonna, we're gonna get to questions you might ask. Yes, but this is them asking you the question where your brain goes into. Ah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1:

So I mean, not every interviewer or panel asks a challenging question, and even if they do, they're not really looking to trip you up. They're genuinely just good questioning techniques to get the interviewee to answer in a slightly different way or from a different perspective, although that's all they're trying to do. And I would say to that, though, that one of the things that certainly we would be looking for in an interview would be whether somebody's ego gets poked. Yes, and really above anything else, what the difficult questions? The reason they'll trip you up is not because you don't know the answer. It's because you then start getting defensive or justifying. Then start getting defensive or justifying. It's the when you start, or they might, if they disagree with you on something. It reveals your ego state.

Speaker 1:

One of the gifts, if you like for challenging conversations is to demonstrate I'm okay with not knowing or I'm okay with being really pushed. Yeah, that's the opportunity, exactly, exactly. So it's often about the ego, which is why, if you do get a challenging question, I would offer really, look for what the hidden gift is in that question. And it can feel hard in the moment in an interview, but it's very often a gift. So, for example, if somebody said to you and I've noticed on your CV, I mean, obviously you're going for a kind of a European e-commerce role and a kind of a European e-commerce role and I noticed on your CV that you've only ever operated in a couple of European countries, so you haven't worked in all of them, now your brain is thinking I've got to somehow, I'm lacking, yes, I'm lacking, I can't lie, but I've somehow got to to demonstrate to them. So what, what can be the gift in this that you can you back? So, for example, you could say absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And there's a couple of things that might be interesting to mention about that. So the first one is is that, having worked in these two particular markets, I've been able to go really deep and really broad in these markets and understand everything about these markets and retail patterns. The second thing I would say is that part of who I am as a leader means that I make connections and networks right across Europe, and I always have done to make sure that we're sharing best practice and best ideas. So, in terms of how I operate, I always see myself anyway as in a European position and European role. I think we should all operate like that. So what can the gift be? Yeah, rather than going into, oh well, I, I know, but I think I'd be really good.

Speaker 1:

Well, and and thirdly and this genuinely comes up and and thirdly, I'm sure that there are lots of people who've been in these markets and what you need sometimes is a really, really fresh perspective. Yeah, of someone coming in who does not see it in the old patterns, in the old ways who who's? Who's got the maverick, you know who's got the um, you know disruptive innovation mindset. So, yeah, there's always something in there. This is making me think of um early in career. Oh, I noticed that you, that you got um, you know a two, two or a third in in your degree, you know what happened there and, again, you know your mind could really go to.

Speaker 1:

I was a bit lazy yeah, a bit lazy, I was drinking too much, or you know they think I think I'm terrible, but again, you know that is an opportunity. You know whether it's. You know what it really taught me. It really taught me how my brain works and how I have to learn, and that when I'm in a structure or a system where I'm trying to jump through the hoops that don't suit me, actually what can I do to make that work? Or I learned a lot about myself, or I'm going to be really honest with you, I had so many extracurricular activities that have enriched my life so much that in that last year that work did take a bit of a dip. But actually I am so dedicated to that work I'm still doing further development now. I'm still doing further courses, so that you know there's going into it.

Speaker 1:

Go, go into it exactly. Go into it, because there will be reasons. Oh, you know what? I had some very difficult, you know. I lost a family member or I had a very difficult experience in my last year and actually the university suggested that I leave. But I have a real determination, I have a real strength and I wanted to push through. Yes, it meant that the results weren't the best, but you know what I really grew as a person, yeah, so there's always these opportunities, exactly, and and. On that we're going to come on to the favourite question of all in a moment, which is what are your weaknesses, what are your biggest challenges?

Speaker 1:

But before I do, this also reminds me of if you think about what your truth is. So, if you think about a work experience that you've had or exam experience that you've had, there are going to be positive and negative aspects to that in terms of what you hold internally as your truth. There may be some self doubt, there may be some regrets, there may be rumination, but there will also be the other stuff as well, and what I would say is that there is a continuum of your 100% inner truth and you don't have to share all of that in an interview's. Exactly right if you choose to share 10 of your authentic truth that actually I did learn a lot from that and I did. I was focusing on other things. That is not my leadership skills, that is not lying. You do not also have to share the other 90, which was I wish I studies harder, and it was. You know, I found it a bit difficult to juggle it all. You don't have to share about 100 shoes. As long as you're being authentic and truthful to yourself, you can choose which part of your truth you share.

Speaker 1:

I think that I mean that goes beyond interview skills. You know we're right into personal profile here. That, for me, is one of the game-changing pieces around your personal development and communication. I think of it you so you have a continuum, which I really like. I think of it like a filter and you're only filtering through in that moment what is useful or appropriate. So if I'm with my dearest friend or twin sister, my filter might have really big holes because actually it's going to serve me much better to go oh do you know what? It was awful? I feel terrible Because it's a safe space and that's what that friendship is for. But in an interview I'm filtering for the nuggets that are going to serve me and there's a difference between secrecy and privacy. You are not bound to open up your heart and reveal everything about yourself. This is a professional interview.

Speaker 1:

By this point you need to have done the work of processing that experience and filtering out what was useful for you, or that reframe work, which again is in the personal profile series on our 4d on demand, all these tools like the reframe. They're incredibly important for your personal development. And again it shows go right, look right back to the beginning, that transactional analysis model. It shows you in adult ego state a hundred percent when somebody says, oh, that doesn't look very good, what was that gap about? And you don't fall into child, you stay with adult. You're absolutely right. There was a year there and I this is what I learned, and I learned so much. And you know what? We can't go back and change things, but we can move forward and grow from them and I did that exactly. So we could talk about this for hours. I'm going to do one more piece. I mean I've got another 10 things on my list, but we'll come back to this, I'm sure, another time.

Speaker 1:

The final piece for me and I know you've got a really important piece is the question what are your biggest challenges? What was your biggest mistake? What are your weaknesses? Which is often the question were two things. I would say. Over preparedness on this I've seen looks a bit, which means that people don't actually answer the question right. They kind of over process it to try not to give any weaknesses away. Of course, the other side of that is giving too many away. Yeah, so I mean, my offer would be one maximum, two challenges or weaknesses you offer and donate throughout the entire interview. No more than that is what I would say.

Speaker 1:

And the important thing to think about here again, it's like that, that sort of past to future continuum, give the thing. It needs to be spun pretty quickly into a learning and a value. So, for example, one thing I know about myself is that my brain is often racing with really innovative and creative ideas. It's something I do, it's something I have. What that can mean is is that I can I either lose a bit of focus or I can step in too quickly to offer solutions to to my team. So what I've learned is I really need to hold back to let them step in and offer, and it's been a really great learning in my professional development. So you give it, you turn it. Yeah, exactly. So there's.

Speaker 1:

There's two things I would say on that. One is that you, every, you know flip the frailty every, every, every. Did you just come up with that in the moment? I mean, I mean it's your brain, it's got it's. Well, I'd have to say that I think one of my, one of my challenges is I can only speak in alliteration, which can be a problem, certainly when I'm speaking in a foreign language, anyway, but every weakness I'm doing sort of inverted comma bunny is there. But every sort of challenge to your qualities, all of it always, always, always, always has a flip side. So the busy brain is highly creative always, always has a flip side. Yeah, so the busy brain is highly creative. Yeah, everything has a flip side. Impatience has passion, like. So you absolutely flip it. What's on the other side of it? And, as penelope said, and what have you learned? Which is brilliant?

Speaker 1:

The one thing I would add to that is make it role specific. So if you do have a challenge, for example, where you can be a bit, you know, shy on the detail, if you're going for a role in, you know, accountancy and payroll, that that's not your weakness, that's not your weakness. No, no, no. If you're going for a role in sort of, you know, in a clinical, the clinical trials, yeah, clinical trials, it's almost like I can take my eye off the detail. Yeah, no, exactly. So think, role dependency. Which role are you going for? It's so true, you know. If you're going, you know I can be a bit impatient with people. You know, if you're going into something, a quick turnaround, if you, if that's what they want, then impatience fine, great, bring it in, exactly, you know.

Speaker 1:

The other thing I would say, of course, is that you can always turn it into a leadership strength, yeah, so so an example of kind of stepping in, or, you know, making mistakes, making mistakes is a really good one in terms of how you can flip that into leadership and team dynamics. So, yes, I've made mistakes in the past and you know, this is this is an example, and this is this is what it taught me and why I became and how I operate now. And, of course, it's important to allow mistakes in a team culture. It's important to let people fail and support them so that we can push in terms of innovation and growth and those great ideas. So it's taught me that it's an important thing to manage well within a team. Yeah, absolutely, there's always, always a way to demonstrate how it's useful, absolutely. So those are some of the things we would talk about. And we've got a final thing which is hugely important. Yeah, hugely important.

Speaker 1:

So, when you are asked, and do you have any questions for us and a lot of people say When's the next interview? Yeah, right, sort of say what's the process? Yeah, a lot of people say no, not really. Or exactly when can I expect to hear? I mean, that is such a dreary question, I can't tell you. Or, you know, did you think I did? Well? No, so here is something. We're just going to fire these out. I mean, you can probably, you know, you can add to these, of course, but here are some questions that you could ask. Let's say you hire me In a year, what kind of metrics would you use to know that I've done a good job before we go into an annual review?

Speaker 1:

You are doing so much in that you were already saying I expect to be tested on this, I expect to do well. I'm curious about how you're going to know I've done well and also, we're already talking about the fact that I'm going to be doing the job in a year's time. You've got so much in that, when you were interviewing here, what would you like to have known before you joined this company? What would you like to have known before you joined this company? These are fully in the you space. These are so good.

Speaker 1:

If I were to start in this position right away, what is the single biggest contribution I could make in the first few weeks? Love it, lovely. What is it about my application that interested you enough to interview me? I mean, if you could bring that in early, you know, if you feel you've got into a conversation early enough. I mean a question like that. That's a steer. You're actually saying what was it about my CV? And that information is golden to you, because that is where you want to start digging in.

Speaker 1:

Thinking back to people who've been in this position previously, what differentiated the ones who were good from the ones who were really really great? Love that, love that. Could you walk me through an average day or week in this position? That's probably more early in career. I wouldn't use that later. Can you tell me about the team that I'd be working with Nice? What would a career trajectory or advancement look like in this position? Now, certainly if you've got a very kind of ambitious, high growth driven company, you want to be talking about ambition and your career trajectory, so let them know that you are energized and driven.

Speaker 1:

These questions can do so much for you. So do you have any questions for us? You can cherry pick from some of those. I'm sure you can find more online, play this out with friends and colleagues as well. And also, circling back to what you said right at the beginning, if you can go online and find out anything about them or the company, latest press releases, anything they've put online, if you can reference that. So I noticed recently you had a big town hall in munich. Can you tell me about what the key, what were the big themes that came up for you? Yeah, exactly, anything that you can show that you're already invested in the company. Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you, you know the magic, if you could wave a magic wand in this role, what would you know? What would be different? What would you know? What would jump out of the top hat? If you one thing could change in terms of the culture here, what would it be? You know, et cetera, et cetera. So all of those questions, lovely, lovely, lovely.

Speaker 1:

Final thing I'm going to say on this is obviously at the end of the interview, remember, relational. So remember to kind of sign off and close off the interview as much as you can relationally. So, if you're noticing that the clock is ticking and you've only got two minutes and you're still on a question answer. I personally would definitely say I'm noticing the time. Is it a hard close? Because you definitely don't want to just cut off and go. You want at least a minute for kind of niceties thank you for your time all that kind of stuff, and take care of them. And actually you know, name it If it's one o'clock. You know I'm noticing the time here. I also imagine you might be ready for lunch now. You know, should we take this last few minutes to make sure we've all got everything we need from this? And, of course, do follow up. Do follow up, that's what I was going to say. Do follow up.

Speaker 1:

Even if you are going through a recruitment agency, even if you feel like there's a bit of a wall between you and the potential organisation, do what you can. You know them now so you can connect on social media. Talk to your recruitment agency, say I'd like you to put this note in the next email you send them. Do whatever you can. I would. I want to keep that contact. Yeah, I would be slightly cautious about asking them for anything like asking them for a timeline. I would make it very much about them.

Speaker 1:

It was such an interesting conversation. Thank you so much for your time. I you know I really hope the process goes smoothly and I hope we get to see you again. Fine, probably not. Can I ask for some feedback? Can I ask when the next interview is going to be? You can do that at a later stage, but in that first contact post interview it's got to be about them, absolutely. So if you're following up, try and use something from that interview. You know, I I want to thank um, jill and bob again for that example that they gave me. I've really been thinking. I've really I've really reflected on that and actually I've gone and I've bought that book and I'm really enjoying it that they recommended.

Speaker 1:

Find those connection points appreciation, the fact that you've really heard them, the fact that you found them interesting, engaging, the fact that you could already are showing that you're very collaborative. You could work well together. There's an energy between you and that is your gold. You've met them now. You've had a collaborative. This interview has been a collaboration. Yeah, how do you want to make them feel about that collaboration? Yeah, great.

Speaker 1:

I mean, again, there's so much more we could talk about. I mean it's so interesting this topic, isn't it? Because it is. It is as we said right at the beginning. It is that absolute kind of cauldron of being a human being in the world wanting to take the next step forward. You know the kind of human drive to move forward. I feel like you're on show. I feel like you're on show. Yeah, who am I? Yeah, I would treat it as a conversation. The last thing I always say to clients before they go into an interview is enjoy it. Yeah, it's an opportunity to meet people, have a conversation that you may not have had. Well, and just to wrap that up and I think I might have mentioned this on the last podcast, it might not be this role, but it doesn't mean it's not this company and these people, so the individuals behind that desk, because they'll also move on and we have heard those stories so many times. So, build the relationship. Very true, enjoy, take care, good luck, go get them.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the 40 human being podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Do take on board some of the insights, tools and being Podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Do take on board some of the insights, tools and tips, because every time that you try something new. To get back to choice, you are making a vote for the you that you want to become and I love that phrase, pen, I do too and please do share this episode with somebody that you know would really benefit from the lessons and learnings we've been chatting about today. And, of course, if you're interested in more from 4D Human being, do get in touch. We run workshops, trainings, online in-person conference events and keynotes. We've got the 4D On Demand platform for your whole organisation and we do have a free Essentials membership where anybody can sign up for absolutely free to access some of our insights, tools and tips. So do get in touch with us if you'd like to hear more. We cannot wait to hear from you and to carry on the conversation. You