4D Human Being Podcast

Beyond the CV: Mastering Interview Dynamics in Today's Job Market

• 4D Human Being • Season 4 • Episode 45

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The modern job market has transformed the interview process from a one-sided evaluation to a dynamic partnership conversation. Are you still approaching interviews as tests to be passed rather than opportunities to showcase your unique value?

Philippa and Penelope Waller, challenge conventional interview wisdom by revealing the psychology behind successful interviewing. Drawing from their extensive coaching experience with both early career professionals and senior executives, they explain why mindset trumps qualification checklists in today's hiring landscape.

The traditional career trajectory of degree-to-job is rapidly dissolving, replaced by a marketplace that demands entrepreneurial thinking regardless of role. Even when pursuing conventional positions, candidates must approach interviews thinking like solopreneurs asking "what value can I create?" rather than "please choose me."

This episode uncovers game-changing techniques rarely taught in traditional interview preparation. Learn why linguistic precision matters more than you think, using the exact words your interviewers use creates powerful psychological alignment. Discover how body language tricks like subtle chair positioning can establish presence before you've said a word. Master the art of balanced eye contact to engage every panel member, not just the person asking questions.

Perhaps most valuably, the hosts explain why having 2-3 well-crafted stories ready transforms standard responses into memorable moments. These should connect thematically to the role while demonstrating your unique problem-solving approach and creating emotional connection.

Whether you're early in your career or a seasoned professional looking to advance, these fundamental techniques will transform how you approach your next interview.

Subscribe today to stay posted and be ready for part two, where Philippa and Penelope will explore advanced strategic question answering techniques that will further set you apart from the competition.

Speaker 1:

Hello, my name is Philippa Waller, my name is Penelope Waller and we are two of the directors at 4D Human being. And welcome to the 4D Human being podcast. What's it all about, pen? It's all about your personal and professional relationships. It's about your communication skills, how you lead, how you work and build teams, how you are looking after yourself and your well-being, and how you are much more at choice. What do we mean by that? Well, sometimes we can get a little caught in patterns in life and we can all be a little bit on our automatic pilot. So 40 Human being is all about helping us get back to choice and being a four-dimensional human being. Your fourth dimension, of course, is intention. So, whether it's about your impact, your leadership style, your team dynamics, whether it's about your well-being, whether it's about your communication or your presentation skills anything that involves human beings interacting with other human beings 40 Human being are here to help. We're going to take a deep dive and look at some tools, insights, theories that are going to help you go from a 3D human doing to a 4D human being, so that you can happen to the world rather than the world simply happening to you.

Speaker 1:

Hello and good afternoon. It is just about afternoon, isn't it? Is it now? Oh, one minute ago? Countdown, it's the final. How are you, philly? Very well, actually. Yes, very good, I'm all right. I've got a little bit of pollen-y eyes today. I think the counts up. That's the official medical term, dear doctor.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I don't know what else it would be, to be honest, although I did stay up quite late last night watching Eurovision. Yes, I didn't have the strength, although it was enough to see the WhatsApp chat, quite frankly, and to know the madness that entailed. It's getting madder every year, I have to say I think it's more a vote on madness than music. I think Sometimes we just need the big release, sometimes we need somebody floating up on a giant microphone in a barely a little. There was some very random, yeah, events. Anyway, we did. We did not do well as the uk, but you know. But you know, creativity shouldn't always be constrained. Sometimes it should, but sometimes you've got to reach for it. You can always pull back. I smile, although I don't think they do. They really didn't. I particularly loved the Swedish sauna madness, right, that was pretty good. Well, for those of you who didn't watch it, we can just let our imaginations run riot.

Speaker 1:

So we're talking about something, yes, sort of serious today, although actually it's a topic that I think people should enjoy more than they do, but we don't tend to Do. You know what I was thinking about. So we're going to talk about interview skills, yes, and we're going to do two episodes on this, because we love it, we love it, we're going to love it, we're going to do a fundamentals and then we're going to do an advanced episode and I was thinking about it this morning and we're going to talk about this how the culture of getting jobs has changed so much. Anyway. Well, the whole work, you know, the whole marketplace has changed, and I was thinking, really the word interview doesn't really sum it up anymore. It's really interaction, skills, it that it's skills that you know. Maybe back in the day let's start with this, just the context back in the day you may have had one interview in your life at some point and then maybe you'd have a few, like a handful nowadays, the level of sort of networking, hub, project, entrepreneurship again, we'll talk about that more widely in terms of traditional job markets but really you're basically interviewing yourself all the time and so it's not really a sort of like gear up for that one interview that it used to be get ready, get your cv prepped, you know, get your presentation ready, or whatever it is. Now it's a way of being all the time.

Speaker 1:

Well, I'll slightly caveat that in as much as, if I think about clients that I work with, there is quite a distinct difference between those who operate as if they are continually interviewing, building that network, having the conversations, and those that don't. And, of course, when it comes to the big interviews, the, the people that haven't done that, they haven't got the network, haven't practiced those skills, which means that, like you say, for people who've practiced being like that, walking into a room or going online with a panel of people who ask you about your history or career I mean, we do it all the time because we're always meeting new clients, we're always giving briefs. We do it all the time because we're always meeting new clients. We're always giving briefs. They ask us about 4d. So that practice of shifting and adapting the way that you talk about your personal profile and your company profile is happening all the time. And also, what's what's really interesting about what we do and I it's interesting. I don't really think about it in terms of, uh, continuing the interview, but that is what we do is, of course, we can connect the dots so so easily, both in terms of what people do and how people need to show up, but also in terms of literal network connections. So, because we have so many conversations, I generally always know somebody. Yeah, that is related to, perhaps, the interview that the person is is preparing for, yeah, so that whole network piece, the whole network piece, is so super useful.

Speaker 1:

So, to finish, that wider context piece, you know that I mean you're starting to see quite a lot of this online, that idea that your children or your teenagers will go to university, get a degree, leave and get a graduate job With a sort of standard interview process. Yeah, yeah, it's over. Standard interview process yeah, yeah, it's, it's well, people are saying it's over, and I say that sort of with a slight pause, because I can also imagine that's quite frightening for quite a lot of people that actually that's the model that we have grown up with. It's the model that we've sort of filtered into the education system get this degree there'll be a kind of graduate fair, yeah, or however your university does it, and then you'll pick your companies, you're going to have interviews and hopefully get a nicely paid job, because you've got big debts and you've done your time at university and there just aren't the number of jobs. Now you know, the stats are anything from you're one in 150 to 500 people going for a job I mean, the stats are crazy or certainly the traditional type of job, the traditional job.

Speaker 1:

But this is my point, though. What I would say is, even if you're going for a I'm doing bunny quotes for those of you not watching even if you're going for a traditional job, you still need to be thinking about yourself as a solopreneur, a self-starter, going into partnership. What are you bringing? How are you meeting that company? So we'll talk about that. But it's a real mindset shift. You're no longer trying to prove to a big organization that they need you as a cog in their yeah, company to to sort of do things you're. You're now meeting people and having a conversation about the value add and partnership, what's possible if you come and work for them. What are you going to bring? What are your ideas? Yeah, and we'll talk a lot more about that on the second episode of these two podcasts, because that piece particularly feeds into our technique in terms of how we answer questions. So we'll talk a lot about that.

Speaker 1:

We're going to do a bit more of a kind of a context set the preparation piece and the impact piece in this first one, and then we're going to dive into the real kind of strategic question answering in the second one, which is probably one of my favourite coaching topics. Yeah, you've been doing a lot of this. I do a lot of it, and it's just so interesting the pitfalls that people fall into time and time again. So we'll talk. We'll talk about those on the side. Well, you know, someone asked you about your weaknesses. The danger is you'll tell them. So that's exactly right. You know you've got to be ready. Um and um. That is not really what that's going on. It goes back to when we'll come to it next, next in the next episode. But just to tease it, it reminds me of a quote that's often used in media training, which I think was attributed to Churchill, which was something like I've prepared my answers for the questions that you're going to ask, meaning it doesn't matter what you ask. I've got, I know what I need to say in this interview and I'll find a way Exactly. And it's not well, you're kidding-away. This is why I'm really late, yeah. Or you know why were you out of work for a year? Oh, because I couldn't get a job. Or, equally, just no Gaps in CVs. Those are opportunities. Anyway, it all comes back to narrative, doesn't it? Narrative, narrative, so preparation, so preparing for an interview.

Speaker 1:

So I would say, firstly, spread the net wide in terms of who you go for. Yes, you don't want to be narrowing thinking. That's not my sort of sector. Sectors are sort of done equally. It's about skill set, it's not about knowledge. Or I don't know anything about the tech industry, not the point. I mean the Reid Consulting did a survey, did a survey must be. Oh well, over a decade. When I started doing this, it was well, it was, must have been so 13, 14 years ago, where the days of knowing things about something is done, it's mindset. You can learn, you can learn the actual tasks and you can learn the nuts and bolts and the knowledge of a industry. It's mindset. Of course, now the mindset is very innovation, ideas, quick to pivot, yeah, action orientated systems thinking. So it's mindset, it's, it's possibility.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and I would certainly say, related to that, if you haven't had a lot of experience being interviewed either because you're young and early in career or perhaps because you've joined a company and you had one interview back in the day and you haven't had any experience since then. I guess one thing I would offer is think about the opportunities you've got to step into interviews, and it doesn't have to be because you definitely want to change job or definitely want to get a promotion. I think it's really useful to have a mindset of can I have the conversations with these people, can I network with them and can I step into an interview even if I perhaps don't think I'll get the job or even if I'm not looking to change at the moment? I think too often we probably veer away from having interviews because we feel a bit nervous or we feel like we're not not good enough to get the job. I would check in with yourself first of all, the people I know who sort of courageously step into having interviews even if they don't get the job. They are getting themselves. No, they are getting the experience in terms of those conversations. And even if you don't want the job, I would absolutely agree. Particularly in this day and age, we are not spending all of our time just constantly bumping shoulders over water coolers. If you can get in front of people to have a conversation, have the conversation. That's the opportunity. That's the opportunity. You don't know where they're going to end up. You don't know where they're going to go.

Speaker 1:

We've learned I'm sure many of you listening have learned over careers people move, people change. I'm sure many of you listening have learned over careers people move, people change. We've got a fabulous friend who was also a colleague many years ago, who's working for an organization now and that went through various conversations and the role changed, or the role disappeared or the role was adapted Over a period of time. The person in the organization liked this friend of ours so much they could absolutely see what they could bring creatively. And they are spot on. She's so creative and so good at what she does that they just kept her in mind, kept her in mind, kept her in mind and three times that they came back to try to find the right thing and they eventually did. And those are the conversations that are happening.

Speaker 1:

But that's what you want and we talk about this in our personal profile series and sort of self-brand and self-pis that I mean. Ultimately, the ideal scenario, of course, is that you've got people knocking on your door saying what job would you love to do in my organization, rather than you having to, you know, go going through that formal interview process. So, ideally, on a longer term basis, that's the kind of network and relationship you want to be building up, but for now, in these two episodes, we're gonna we are going to talk specifically about a more formal interview. Yeah, and it's important to say this is absolutely for early in career graduates, equally for people who've been in the game long enough. We help people very soon enter the market and we also help people at very senior level who are looking to take over global roles. So this is for anybody and if you can think of anybody who you think might benefit, please do send this on.

Speaker 1:

And I want to plug quickly now before I forget, and we will plug it at the end we have a personal profile series on our digital platform, 4d On Demand, and it's called Personal Profile, and the Personal Profile series has got lots and lots of pieces in there around personal brand and narrative, and it also has a huge amount, a really nice chunky set of modules on your online profile blogs, posts, cvs, the tracking system for interviews so it really touches into how can you get your foot through the door? How do potential employers see you? We will follow that up fairly soon with a, with another series on purely on interview skills. But that is an amazing that's going to be available to buy by the summer. A click to buy that personal profile series and that is an amazing series. Probably with the impact series, if you've got anybody early in career or really any stage who are looking to do job interviews those two, impact and personal profile you will have an absolute treasure trove of tips and tools. So today we probably won't speak about the CV and any sort of covering letter, those more sort of formal pieces, but, like Philippilip said, you can find that on our platform.

Speaker 1:

What I would speak about in the sort of the pre-prep bit, probably two or three things I would think about. The first one is what we just spoke about, which is have the confidence to apply and sneak in even if you feel like you're perhaps not perfectly qualified. Yeah, or catch the bias, yeah, either. I don't tick all the boxes. There is the gender split. On that of course. There has been research and again, this is it was done on a gender male-female split. But you know, I'm very aware of holding that in a much broader context. Also, it was done quite a while ago and it was done quite a while ago, but, regardless, some people will look at the number of boxes they do tick oh, I've got six out of 10. I'm definitely going for that. And some people will look at the boxes they don't tick oh, I haven't got four of them. I won't. So just notice what happens for you, because you may well not apply and somebody who ticks five boxes gets the job, and that's a real wasted opportunity, totally, totally.

Speaker 1:

The second thing I would say, and and again, we're not going to talk about your sort of your online presence in terms of social media. That's a whole other other topic. But the second thing I would say, aside from having the competence to step in and apply, the second thing would be find out about the company, find out about the people interviewing you, look at their online profile, whether that's linkedin or something else. Get curious, get some information about who these people are and you know, even, possibly, even if you're going through a head hunter, possibly think about dropping them an email or connecting on linkedin and say you know, I'm interested in your organization and, going through a process, wanted to connect. Yeah, we often don't do these things because we think, well, that's not the process. I must follow the strict process, but again, I would think of it much more relationally absolute, and those are the people that are complete game changers when it comes to people who've approached us.

Speaker 1:

I've looked at your website, absolutely loved it, really want to know more about this, that or the other. Can you tell me how I can you know, find out this, that or the other? And I'd love to hear more about this specific area of your business. I mean mean anything like that. It immediately breaks down that barrier that a lot of people do. This is slightly more in sales, which is just the generic email of you know I'm in social media marketing. Would you like to make an appointment with me? No, because you haven't looked for the connections.

Speaker 1:

Do you live somewhere? Where are you in the same area as one of those recruiters? Do you? Did you used to work or know one of the companies that they used to work for in their history? Jim, who's your acquaintance? Who's your acquaintance? Any number of things? Did they do a post on hiking? Oh, you're a hiker too. Anything, anything. So that's the second thing, and I guess the third thing, before we get onto the actual sort of interview itself and the setup we have, I guess the third thing would be building on that second thing is really trying to approach it from a space of curiosity and interest rather than a test. A test, exactly that, exactly that. A test that's exactly how most of us look at interviews. Yeah, they didn't like me. Yeah, I must, I must pass this test, I must have and I mean psychologically, in terms of where that's putting you and putting the interviewer or the panel. I mean already as a kind of starting point and platform. It's usually a huge disadvantage to put yourself in that mindset. So I want to. It's a conversation rather than a test. I want to. I want I was going to bring in my analogy.

Speaker 1:

I was going to say what was I going to say? I was going to say a sell, but actually I like test better because that's how it feels. I was going to bring in. I'm going to bring in this, the analogy with acting auditions later, because there's so many really useful crossovers, because, because you're doing so many auditions when you're an actor and they're so, they're so raw, because you don't even have a cv really to yeah, and you're literally gonna. It's just you. You are setting yourself, um, but one of the things that you say there around, what happens when you set it up as a test in terms of the status and the roles that you've just set, is you're basically saying to them do you think that I'm good enough to work with you? And the acting analogy is really really good because bears giving an issue, because you walk into, it's got no fur to show.

Speaker 1:

You walk into an audition and whether you're doing, whether it's for a piece of theater or particularly for a piece of film or television, there's a lot of money riding on any of these productions. Yeah, they're high risk. You've got a very short time to rehearse and prepare and to make. Well, you've got a very short time to make an impression in the, in the audition, certainly, but in the actual job you might have three, four weeks. If you're in theater to to rehearse. If you're going into a production film or television you have got that.

Speaker 1:

They have got to know that you can turn up on the day as the cameras are rolling and the money is just draining second by second. Do it and deliver. Do it and deliver. So what they don't want in the room is do you think I'm good enough? They want to know you're going to show up, bang, deliver and not just be on time, but probably save them time so that they can they can bank time on an expensive production. There is no time, and I think it's really significant nowadays as well, for, well, you know, let's see, you're not quite there yet, but we can probably help you get there.

Speaker 1:

I think, again, those days are you've got to meet on a level playing field, you've got to meet across the table. I, this is what I've got, this is what I'd bring, this is what I'd love, and and even if you don't feel that, even if you feel like all the big people with the power and of course there's a power, but there's something about reframing that to they need the good people to work for their company. Yeah, they are dependent any organization is dependent on finding great people, as we, as we know totally well. Also, I would say and we'll talk about this much more in the second episode that of course, we sort of can have the mindset that an interview is a test and we've got to demonstrate that we've got the experience to do the job. It's so unlikely you'd be sitting in front of the interviewer if you didn't have the experience to do the job. I mean it's it's so. I mean their filtering process would have to be well. It's, especially now, appalling for that to happen, so it's sort of taken as a given. Yeah, I mean, really what people are looking for is much more about your attitude and the relationship with this person, want to work with this person and, you know, do they have the right attitude and relationship style, et cetera, et cetera. So we're really doing ourselves a disservice if we look at interviews as a test because it's not really what they are and therefore we're showing up to something that isn't what we think it is. Yeah, absolutely so. Let's think about being in the interview itself Well, first impressions.

Speaker 1:

So I'm going to do my. I'm going to do my second analogy to auditioning, because I um, I went to rada and then I taught at rada for a while and what I taught was confidence and audition technique really specifically, and so this was obviously for younger people entering the profession. The big big thing that I think was one of the huge takeaways was that first impression, because what we tend to do is to take in what some of the feelings are for us, quite naturally, which is oh, yeah, yeah, well. Which is, oh, it's me, I'm here, we're doing this, this is an interview. The spotlight's on me. I haven't had one for a while, oh my goodness. And so we take that into the room.

Speaker 1:

And how that manifested with young actors was they'd open the door and poke their head around and go, hello, like because for them it was a unique moment of it's me and I'm here and you're here and oh my goodness, this is a thing, but of course, for the panel, it's the most bought. They're like you're the 50th person. There's nothing unique about someone poking their head and being a bit nervous. Nothing unique about that. In fact, you just added yourself to the long list of people who've poked their head around the door nervously and gone, oh hello, can yourself to the long list of people who've poked their head around the door nervously and gone oh hello, or something like apologizing or saying shall I, shall I come in? Yes, and coming online in the tech, not quite being ready or being a minute. Yes, apologizing, and. And for you that's a sort of unique experience and feels authentic because it's how you're feeling. For them, it's just there's two things. There's a hundred times they've seen it. And the second thing is, inadvertently, you're messaging to them Can you take care of me please? Yes, because I'm nervous and this is the first time, so you've already set the status gap. Yeah, so that first impression absolutely counts.

Speaker 1:

So, whether you're walking into a room, shoulders back, walk in. Don't take any unzipped bags in there or too many pieces of paper or any props. Same as an actor that you could drop, I'd never get a takeaway coffee. No, takeaway to an interview, I mean, even when I'm going to meet a client, particularly for the first time, I mean I have made the mistake in the past and it's just fumbling, yeah, just just chaotic fun. We do have a story no, no's mentioned, but somebody very close to us who, yes, had an interview in london and was very fortunate that there was a very friendly m marxist, spencer's assistant who, I think, almost opened the shop early and he had 10 minutes to get a new shirt and did, but you know, with the creases, but anyway.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, you don't want that straight, just to think about what you're. Yeah, think about exactly how you're, how you're helping yourself. So you know, walk in, make eye contact. Depending on the culture. Obviously, in the west we put our hands out to shake our hands, but one of one of the easiest ways, when you're in person, to know what the protocol is in terms of are we shaking hands or what are we doing here, is to pay attention to what they're doing, that they will. They'll signal, yeah, they'll signal to you. So so just be ready, be ready and open and, obviously, online, I'm going to pass to you for, on appearing online, so you've switched on your join, the call.

Speaker 1:

All right, what do you not want to say? The big pitfalls. The big pitfalls are background. First of all. Really do think about what your background is. It matters. Even if you think it shouldn't matter, it does matter. So so decide in advance where you're going to peeling paint, have your laptop and what's bags of rubbish. That is your first impression in terms of who you are and how you operate. It matters, yeah, that's the very first thing. Of course, the framing. So just make sure that you're well framed on your computer screen. It's not just like sort of the top of your head that people can see. You want sort of you want solar plexus, sort of mid-chain, yeah, sort of just above your stomach, up at least in your arms, to be able to be seen. Get your tech sorted beforehand. So if you have to do a practice call with the head hunter or with a friend, get the tech sorted out beforehand.

Speaker 1:

I can't tell you how many times I see people sort of fumbling over tech and audio. Coming on, have a phone backup. Have your phone or your iPad ready to do a backup. I know it's not always easy and we're all using sort of multiple platforms online. It's really boring to have, you know, the 10th person come on and the audio doesn't work. Yeah, that's not interesting either. Can I also add to that you might use, I don't know, webex or zoom or teams, but that organization might use blue jeans. Yeah, and so have you checked the invite for the tech that they're using? Google meet any number of things. I had a. I had a particular one the other day, I think, through one of our clients that I'd never used before, and then you need to download the app. Yeah, you don't want to be doing that on the hour, so just get the tech sorted.

Speaker 1:

The other thing I would say is uh, watch the first things that come out of your mouth, usually online. Uh, the words I hear first arc, sorry, what's the first word for anything, any number of things? The first word that reminds me because I'm a Downton fan, as we know um, that reminds me of one of Maggie Smith's beautiful lines. When Pallelope Wilton's character walks in and says only me, she goes oh, I always think that greeting communicates such a low level of self-esteem. But you know, it's that, isn't it? Oh, only me, sorry, hi, oh, yeah, exactly, yeah. So those are a few things to think about. They sound really obvious and you'll, you'll all know from meetings that you have day to day at work that they're, they're the pitfalls we fall into.

Speaker 1:

I would have a pen and paper ready. Um, I always do that, even, you know, not even, but on a podcast, I definitely on client calls. I want to have, I want to have a piece of paper and a pen. I want to be making notes. Yes, because nothing more fabulous and actually ideally out of shot. So, just so, just so, which you can do easily. Yeah, you can have your. No one has to see your writing. In fact, ideally you don't want that. You just want to be able to even not even look at the paper, but just a quick note so that something that's been said in the first 10 minutes that you think I'm definitely want to come back to that I know we've moved on to my background or history. That is a really good. I really want to let them know about this project that they've got I know they've got in their company and how I can help.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, make notes, because those what we call reincorporations, yeah, look genius. I want to go back to something you said earlier, brian, which I really loved and I made a note of it, and I want to talk about how, what I could see happening with that and what I could bring to that project. Lovely, it's absolutely genius in terms of what it's doing to the other person's brain, yeah, and ego and ego. And even if you just note down some words that they've used, even if there are no particular sort of big concepts, you want to weave back in, note down some words that they use, which, of course, you should do in terms of the job spec as well in advance. So I would always go through a job spec with the client and highlight some key words, and by that I don't mean sort of technical words, I mean words that will give me a really good indication of the type of leader or type of culture that they're stepping into. You've got to use those words. Yeah, well, there's some real psychology in that.

Speaker 1:

Because, if you, there's something that happens in influencing and equally in something like counselling or coaching or therapy, and equally in something like counselling or coaching or therapy, is if you feed back to somebody sort of similar but different words to what they've used, it really breaks that relationship. So if someone says to you, oh, you know, I was really into ballet as a child, I loved the grace of that classical dance, and you feed back later on, of course, because you like dance, you like the sort of beauty of dance, didn't you? That is not the same as feeding back to them. Well, of course, you know, you were a real ballet fan and I really get the grace. The grace of ballet is really special, isn't it? That is a completely different communication experience. So, exactly that, if they're talking about their organisation as dynamic and fun, and you go back and say, well, you know, because you've talked about it being sort of playful and energized, they haven't. No, they've talked about it being dynamic and fun. Yeah, they've talked about it being dynamic and fun. Exactly, absolutely. So it's a really interesting point. I mean, it sounds like it might be on the periphery in terms of importance, but it's actually not, because of how our brains are coded linguistically.

Speaker 1:

If you use the statutes you said, if you use exactly the same words, it is significantly different in terms of what the other person feels and hears versus if you use a synonym Exactly A similar word. And what you're saying is there's two things happening there. One is listen, listen, listen, which we'll talk about. We'll talk about more. The second thing it's doing is saying I am part of your tribe, yeah, yeah, yeah, I belong to you, we speak the same language, yeah, and I, I mean at a fundamental maslow's hierarchy of needs. I mean that is doing things that no amount of oh look, how many you know tech skills I've got. Well, it also goes back to Robert Cialdini's influencing styles and influencing techniques as well. Of course, the number one thing is he uses the word liking, but within that it's both compliments, but it's also similarities and shared goals, and I love it when Matt talks about this in the room and he often uses the example.

Speaker 1:

When you go on holiday somewhere and occasionally you bump into people, either perhaps you you know them, or perhaps they're just you know the same nationality as you and you're in a foreign country. What you'll do is you'll start talking immediately to try and find the things that are similar. Where are you from in the UK? Who do you work for, what do you do? And you're trying to find the crossover as quickly as possible. And there's a really good reason that we do that. It's because we will tend to want to hang out with people and be with people where we can find some similarity and crossover, and interviews are no different in that respect. Yes, of course you have to demonstrate that you can do the job, but really subtly. What's sitting underneath is are we in the same tribe? Do we share similar values or do we share similar activities? So using language to demonstrate that is just genius.

Speaker 1:

So listen, listen, listen.

Speaker 1:

Listen to what's being said and listen to what is not being said.

Speaker 1:

So listen to, for example, somebody asks a question. You've got two or three people on the panel. Somebody asks a question and you notice that another one of the panel members looks at that person and really nods this is an important question now. Yes, you've just been. They obviously had a chat about that beforehand. Yeah, you've just been told you are hitting a crux point in the, a turning point in this interview.

Speaker 1:

So you are being signal. So imagine if you're asked that question and you're thinking, oh crikey, what, what should I answer to this? And you just see somebody nodding and go yes, yeah, absolutely yeah. And then, looking at you intently, really want to know the answer. I would immediately say that is such a crucial, such an important question. Exactly. I'm so glad you asked that. That feels and I mean I'm putting my hand on my heart as I say it so you've got.

Speaker 1:

You've got signalers to not just land with them on the answer to the question, but to land on them of the meaning, yes, behind this, and this is something that will definitely build on on on the second episode, which is, you know, we always like to think about our work, and particularly, I think, in interview skills, in terms of what we call the integral map, so that's the multi-perspective map. So think of a four quadrant with I in one box, you in another box, we as a collective in another box and it in another box, which would be the role or the organisation, that sort of objective party thing, and, of course, what we'll tend to do when we go into interviews is we've prepared our cv, we've practiced, I'm, we're in the eye, we're in the eye, look at what I've done and then, of course, the questions will be can you tell me a bit about yourself? What experience? So the questions are inadvertently trying to push us into the I box. They're coming from the you and we answer in the I.

Speaker 1:

So we'll very often make the I think big mistake of just sitting in the I box and what you've just spoken to is notice the you box and notice the we box. What's going on in front of you and what can I respond to and collectively weave in? And this is all about flicking the spotlight onto the other people. So, yes, of course the spotlight is going to be on you a lot of the time. Of course you need to talk about yourself. Yeah, you do not want to be doing that 100% of the time. You've got to be flicking that spotlight on the organization and the people.

Speaker 1:

Well, you can actually almost have an image in your head of a circle with an eye in right next to it, touching it, a circle with a U in, and both of those are in a we, and both of those are in an it and you absolutely need to talk to all four of those. So both you and the recruit, the recruiters or HR, whoever you're talking to, the business leader, both of you are sitting within the we space, the collective we us. This is what it will be like collective we us. It will be like when we work together and when, when, when we work together as part of this team, what's important to us, what's important to us, and then the it, which is the business, the organization, the project, the value I can drive, exactly the mission statement, the products, whatever it is, because and we'll talk really specifically in the second episode about some real kind of nitty gritty, tangible examples of how to answer these questions using this integral map but the pitfall is is that we have in our head maybe subconsciously, but going to an interview, we have in our head I need to talk about myself, I'm going to be in that I space.

Speaker 1:

Honestly, honestly, how interesting is it for somebody to sit there for 45 minutes and listen to someone talking about themselves? Honestly? Yeah, I'm sure we were all fascinating human beings, but, honestly, do you want to sit in front of somebody talking about the system for 45 minutes, certainly not on a date, um, actually you want to think about it more like a day, don't you? Which is, don't you know, you don't want to be talked at? Um, and actually this brings us to a really important piece within interview skills. Absolutely name the two or three things, no more than three, thank you, they've got your cv in front of them.

Speaker 1:

Story, story, story. Yes, you want to walk into that interview with at least three peachy, cracking, nice, chunky stories, life-changing moments, moments where you learned, moments where you fell down, picked yourself up, cracked on the moment you helped someone else achieve what they needed to achieve you relevant sort of meaning and learning. Yes, exactly, and this is in the storytelling 40 on demand. There's some fabulous tools in there around. Find your theme. Yeah, so if you're going for a team leader role, then you might find a theme around motivation, or click, or the collective, or working together, or it might be. They're looking for somebody who's going to transform the business Might. Transformational might be sales. You want to find your theme and you want at least two or three stories that you have got ready in your back pocket and you're looking for the opportunities to tell them those stories.

Speaker 1:

So tell me the three things that you're most proud of. I'm going to tell you those. First of all, I want tell me the three things that you've you know are most proud of. I'm going to tell you those. First of all, I want to tell you a story. Yeah, so you want to have your stories ready, because immediately you've bought now you've bought my time. Yeah, because everyone else would have said okay, number one, which is fine, you can get there. Three things is also useful. Three things is also very useful, and we'll talk about how you can use story to answer questions in the second episode.

Speaker 1:

I would say on that, it's quite difficult often for us to gauge and track how long we should speak for, and I get that question quite a lot from people. What's too short, what's too long? There's no definitive on this. So don't think that there's a perfect Except don't be too long, except don't be too long. People talk too much. I mean, even if you are too short in your answer, even if it's too pithy and short, you can always say at the end I can go into that in more detail if that will be useful. Absolutely Better to do that and then ask that question If you've been talking for more than three and a half minutes, I would say you're heading.

Speaker 1:

I would say Stop, you're heading into the danger zone, stop, stop talking. Well, I mean, if you just have a chat with a friend and just click the timer on as they're talking to you about whatever, what they did last night or whatever, just notice how long three and a half minutes feels to the other person listening, it's a long time, yeah, and at the very least, if you think I think the person listening it's a long time, yeah, and at the very least, if you think I think I'm talking quite a bit, just take a moment, don't panic. Take a moment and say I'm wondering if, or ask a question. You know I'd I'd love to, I'd love to know from you, yeah, you know there's more I could say on this. Would you like to hear? Or, um, I'd love to hear from you, um, what the specific area that you'd really like to hear about. So you can always ask a question, because at least you're going to wait. If they've fallen asleep, at least you're going to get the back okay. So we're going to move on to some impact and body language and a few tips that are just kind of really cracking to do.

Speaker 1:

My number one is shoulders. Yes, okay, go on, you go my number up. In fact, I'm sort of well known within my client community to then, if he shoulders back, that is exactly what I'm known as and my clients, some of them, know each other and they kind of laugh yeah, shoulders, yes, she's, that's the whole show. Yes, yeah, yeah, um, I know it sounds obvious and particularly when we're online, it's often the thing that lets us down. Yeah, and it's just unconscious. So, shoulders back, so primal. Anybody who's watched any documentaries on monkey tribes? Um, guess what? It's not the hunched down monkey who ends up being head of the tribe. Like, I mean, it's so primal, isn't it so? Um, yeah, shoulders back, I remember doesn't mean you have to be really, really stiff, but just just, yeah, I'm gonna go back to. So.

Speaker 1:

I was laughing with a friend of mine. I was at drama school with her and we met up the other day and I was reminding her the principal had said to us you can tell a rider student a hundred yards down the road, and he meant shoulders, yeah, his posture. Well, you, I remember you did years of alexander technique, yeah, and it. I remember us talking at the time when we were much younger, about how much there was around the physical and the voice rather than sort of jumping into costumes and doing plays the physical and the breath and all of these things and the posture was so important in terms of impact. Well, I mean, that's a whole other piece and that's in our impact series, voice. If you open an interview with hi, it's like I mean, what can we say? And also, talking too fast, I mean, the voice is a whole other topic, but it's such a specific topic that, um, I think we've done some. We have done some podcasts on voice. Yeah, so check, check those out. Um, I'm gonna.

Speaker 1:

I've got two, so one of mine is names, so you will not only have the status of you in the room. There'll be a status between your interviewers if there's more than one. So a really lovely thing to do is to get you because you want both. Of my tips here are about making sure you're not dividing the panel, so really easy, as it is in life in meetings, for our attention to go to the person we think we think has got the most influence or is a decision maker. We might be wrong, of course, so you might be completely screwing up, and I would tend to offer you've got to use their, all of each of their names at least once. Exactly.

Speaker 1:

You, really, you definitely want to say that their names. If you're online, you should have the benefit of having their names at the bottom of their little square, like on Celebrity Square. You know game shows, but you definitely want to check that before you go onto the call and, equally, when you walk into the room, make sure that when you shake hands or say hello, that you clock, you work out their names, make a mental note to yourself. It's so important. And if it's a pronunciation that you're unsure about, have the courage to say oh, can I just check, is it, is it shemika or shemika? Can I just check that? Yeah, like, check it. People appreciate it. You know I have a name that's spelled very differently. I always say to people when they say is that one l, two p's? I say spot on and thanks for asking. What a great question. We, we like it. Our names are important. We like it when people bother. Yeah, so names.

Speaker 1:

And the second one is eye contact. Now, I don't just mean eye contact as in make it, although, yes, do make eye contact and watch out for that, because, of course, when we are slightly panicky or lost in thought or trying to come up with an answer, we go back to our school days when we're chewing our pencils and staring at the floor or the ceiling. I see it so much. The eye contact goes, yeah, and it it doesn't feel strange to you as the interviewee because you're used to moving your eye contact away when you're thinking, it starts to look really weird, absolutely, and it also signals a lack of confidence, absolutely. So try to stay locked in, stay making eye contact and, even if you're trying to think consciously, keep smiling and looking at your panel or your interviewers and just have filler words. Okay. So this is a question that I really have been thinking about and I'm really pleased it's come up. Just get your filler words in, because that will give you some space, and by words we don't mean the ums and the errs, no, sorry. Yeah, good conversation. Yes, keep the conversation going with generic appreciation of the question. It was really important that, um, I'm really glad that you brought this up. Sort of more thinking, general, general statements about the question.

Speaker 1:

The thing about eye contact that happens in interviews a lot is you end up getting locked in with the person who's asked you the last question. So you've got to think about eye contact like candy, and you don't want to give all the candy to one person because everyone else is sitting there feeling like, why don't I get some of the candy, I'm not going to bother listening, and they or I'm not even sure I'm impressed with this person and they might be feeling you don't know. The dynamics between the people sitting in front of you and panel interviews are becoming increasingly common, so it might be that someone is sitting there and thinking that they would like to ask a question but they don't feel they can because perhaps they're the most junior person on that panel, or perhaps the HR person is leading the interview and the other person's not getting a chance to to ask questions, and that could be very frustrating. And then you think about how they're then feeling emotionally and then, if you don't give them eye contact on top of that, they feel completely excluded and they're not going to feel connected with you. So yeah, if that is the case, if things are not being shared out in terms of questions with the panel, you will have to do extra work to get connected exactly. And if you think about they're there for a reason, which means they've got a vote yeah, which means you want them on your side, yeah, and actually you've got a real potential win there with the quiet person that if they've got some influence, they've got a vote in the ballot of you, but they're not particularly leading the interview you give them a bit of eye contact candy. You've probably just won the vote.

Speaker 1:

So so the way this works is get a question from somebody, give them some of your eye contact candy as you start to answer. Okay, well, actually back um five years ago I was working with a team, so start the answer. Then, as you continue your answer, you spread the love, spread the love, spread the candy. And then you might want to come back to that person at the end who's asked you the question, to finish with them, unless you don't like the questions they're asking you, in which case you might keep your candy on the other panellists who might be. You know, if you've got good cop, bad cop playing out, you might start your eye contact with bad cop, but you might think I just leave. I'll finish my candy donation on good cop and hope that that encourages them to ask me yeah, so you can use your eye contact exactly. So. So I love that one. So, eye contact, eye contact. So I think those are our main.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think on the on the next podcast, what we're going to look at is we'll do, we'll do a little piece on impact, although we do talk about impact an enormous amount on our on the 40 human being podcast. The main thing we're going to do on the second episode of these two episodes for interview skills and techniques is we're going to really dive into specific questions and how to answer them and how not to answer them, and generally really thinking about some of the pitfalls that we fall into. Yeah, as a as interview candidates. I'm going to give one last tip. If you're in the room, this is harder online, of course, although you can shift your body language a little bit online, sometimes you can maybe just just want to get a little bit of movement in, because what we don't want is battle lines drawn. So what's not a tennis match, is it exactly? Yeah, you don't want that feeling of confrontation, because if anything slightly goes wrong, that's going to be really heightened in that situation. You want this to feel like you know.

Speaker 1:

Again, I sort of go back to something like with counseling or therapy or sort of even, you know, being with a good friend. You'd probably sit more either side by side or you'd sit on an angle with somebody. You probably wouldn't sit face like directly facing them. So if you're in the room a really lovely piece, we do a whole piece sort of table and room magic as you walk in. Here's a really nice tip as you walk into a room, if it's in person and there's a chair sat in front of the interview table and the other people are on the other side of the table, a really lovely thing you can do to have incredible subliminal signals around. Your control and your ownership is just before you sit on the chair from behind it, just lift it slightly and just just shift it slightly on an angle, yeah, and then go and sit on it and you have now taken control and ownership of this room. This is your chair. You'll put it where you need to sit, not where it's been put for you, and you've already leveled the playing field. There are these lovely techniques and if you do have something that you're carrying, then gently put it on the on the table and then just do a little, just push it slightly, an inch forward and again you're saying this is my space, this is my space, I'm comfortable in this territory. There's lots of things you can do using the space that says I belong here. Yeah, I'm one of you, yeah, and I'm right with you, yeah, so that's our first one on interview. So good, yeah, first one on interview. Yeah, and I would say, enjoy it. Yeah, it's an opportunity to share, hopefully, things that you everyone in the room, yeah, is really passionate about.

Speaker 1:

I remember going for an interview so so many years ago. So I was working in a large organization at the time and I was thinking about moving back to the UK and I went for an interview. It was with an advert, a very well-known advertising agency, and the guy who interviewed me he was very senior. I think it was like the second or third interview and, of course, I had the benefit of you know you and you know all the work and everything. So I kind of kind of felt quite relaxed in the interview and he said to me he, about 20 minutes in, he said why aren't you nervous? And I thought, because every single person he's interviewed has been nervous. It felt weird to him. What a good differentiator. Okay, so we'll leave you on that. Be the person they're sitting there thinking, wow, this is the first person who hasn't been nervous today. This is interesting, so go and enjoy.

Speaker 1:

We'll be with you on our advanced interview techniques in our second podcast, if you have one coming up.

Speaker 1:

All the best of luck.

Speaker 1:

Own that space, own that room, have your stories ready and enjoy every moment of it. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the 40 Human being podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Do take on board some of the insights, tools and tips, because every time that you try something new to get back to choice, you are making a vote for the you that you want to become and I love that phrase pen, I do too and please do share this episode with somebody that you know would really benefit from the lessons and learnings we've been chatting about today. And, of course, if you're interested in more from 4D Human being, do get in touch. We run workshops, trainings, online in-person conference events and keynotes. We've got the 4D On Demand platform for your whole organization, and we do have a free Essentials membership where anybody can sign up for absolutely free to access some of our insights, tools and tips, so do get in touch with us if you'd like to hear more. We cannot wait to hear from you and to carry on the conversation.