4D Human Being Podcast

Are you a communication anthropologist?

• 4D Human Being • Season 4 • Episode 40

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What makes a great communicator today? In this episode, Philippa and Penelope Waller are joined by fellow 4D Director Matt Beresford to explore how you can communicate with more clarity, connection and impact—whether you're leading a team, presenting an idea, or navigating everyday conversations.

As technology speeds up and attention spans shrink, strong communication is quickly becoming one of the most important leadership skills. The team explore how to balance authenticity with the need to grab attention, why emotional connection matters more than polish, and how even AI might be offering us the gift of more time to focus on real human interaction.

They also share personal experiences from the local supermarket, reflecting on how the team’s engagement and the feeling of leaving with a positive experience raises a bigger question—are we overlooking the power of communication, even at the most everyday level?

There are also unexpected lessons from political figures. Regardless of your views, there's something to take from Keir Starmer’s relaxed body language, Angela Rayner’s grounded tone, and the performative presence of figures like Boris Johnson and Donald Trump.

Whether you’re speaking at a meeting, leading a presentation, or simply trying to connect more meaningfully with others, this episode is a powerful reminder that communication isn’t just about delivery—it’s about presence, intention and creating a shared human experience.


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Our team of 4D coaches and facilitators combine the knowledge, expertise and talents of entrepreneurs, business leaders, psychologists and actors to offer a unique suite of communication, leadership and wellbeing programmes to help you and your organisation choose your impact.

Our approach looks at our development in all 4 of our dimensions: physical, emotional, intellectual and intentional. Taking you from being a 3D Human Doing, to a 4D Human Being.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello, my name is Philippa Waller. My name is Penelope Waller and we are two of the directors at 4D Human Being. And welcome to the 4D Human Being podcast. What's it all about, Pen? It's all about your personal and professional relationships. It's about your communication skills, how you lead, how you work and build teams, how you are looking after yourself and your well-being and how you are much more at choice. What do we mean by that? Well, sometimes we can get a little caught in patterns in life and we can or be a little bit on our automatic pilot. So 4D Human Being is all about helping us get back to choice and being a four-dimensional human being. And your fourth dimension, of course, is intention. So whether it's about your impact, your leadership style, your team dynamics, whether it's about your well-being, whether it's about your communication or your presentation skills, anything that involves human beings interacting with other human beings, 4D Human Being are here to help we're going to take a deep dive and look at some tools insights theories that are going to help you go from a 3d human doing to a 4d human being so that you can happen to the world rather than the world simply happening to you And welcome to the 4D meeting. Practically Downton Abbey for me. I know. So it's a little echoey, the sound. It's probably worth saying because we are in oak panelled.

SPEAKER_01:

Oak, I think. Maybe oak. I'm not a wood expert. Some sort of... Panelling.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I was on a panelling. I wish I was in my evening robe. I know. It's all very Lady Mary redesigned. So in this slightly echoey space, we're going to follow off on our previous podcast and talk about being a communication skills anthropologist. So we were talking in our last podcast about now is the time where as a leader, as a human being, you have to be a good communicator because communication It really is about capturing attention now for all of those amazing ideas, those visions, those products, those sort of future strategies. If you can't communicate and take people with you, we've really learned now to swipe layers, whether that's in person or online. Yeah, Matt and I were just saying, it's a really interesting balance that I think we have to find in terms of where perhaps society and platforms are pushing us and where we find ourselves, a really interesting balance between both being real and authentic so that people believe us, honestly, and being very quickly engaging. And that is the balance that we need to find.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's tough as well. That balance is tough because it's quite easy to be engaging and be outrageous or... It's

SPEAKER_00:

eagerly

SPEAKER_01:

at the weekend. These are not easy things for politicians to

SPEAKER_00:

navigate. Yeah, absolutely. And also dealing with the unexpected, dealing with rapid change, dealing with difficult questions, you know, all of those things. So we are expecting a sort of... We are expecting a lot. And exactly as you said, yes, it is challenging. Like lots of us don't find this the easiest thing in the world, both to be great communicators and to find the balance that's right. And... There sort of is no choice, you know, because if you don't get your message out there, somebody else will get their message out. Well, we were talking in our meeting today about how much fun and exploration we're having with AI, like a lot of people and a lot of people that we're working with and... where we are sensing that that line is, where we really want to stay in conversation. And of course, that's our 4D human being. Like when we're calling up the bank to sort something out on our bank. We want people. Yeah. Because I'm a

SPEAKER_01:

person. Yeah, we want people.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, AI is fantastic. And who knows where it's going to take us in terms of creating images and music, of course. We're seeing a lot in the creativity, a lot in the language space. I mean, I suppose I feel quite optimistic that it still creates a lot of room for us as human beings to stand up and communicate. And it could be a golden age for personal communication, for theatre, in-person music, in-person events. And so I think the importance of how you stand up in a room full of people and talk to them and move them and engage them may be ever more important.

SPEAKER_00:

I feel optimistic with you because I think there's analogous channels for this, like with retail, that if your store on the high street isn't creating a really great live experience, people are going to shop online. And I think it's the same with communication, that we'll all have the apps, we'll all have the quick uploads, you can send us that information, that content. We've come to this space to share an experience together where we want to feel something. And that's what we're talking about with great communication.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a brilliant point. As you know, I live in the Cotswolds and the town that we live in have seen the loss of a number of shops. And it's exactly that reason. The shops that have gone... are the shops that are unable to compete online and don't give you an experience. The shops that survive are either where you have to have an experience, it's food, or it happens to be a wonderful shop where you just like being in there. And so I think that is absolutely the case. Whether it's a team meeting, whether it's a conference, whether you're delivering a political speech, people are coming together for a reason and generally it's because they want to feel something.

SPEAKER_00:

It does make me think that Lidl, other supermarkets are available. We're not the BBC. They might have taken this on board. I live very close to a Lidl, as you know, in my hometown. And the staff on the tills in Lidl are a very broad range in terms of demographic, like very young to, you know, older people. They all... all engage you in conversation as you're going through it. And it can't be a coincidence, can it? I think they might have had some communication. I think the giant Lewis partnership do that. And I really like it.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, yeah, I mean... Maybe we'll spend too long on shots, but we have an Aldi near us. And of course, the Aldi Middle Isle is very famous. You cannot get the Aldi Middle Isle online. You've got to go in there and have

SPEAKER_00:

an experience. And it makes me think of all of our experience in theatre and improv, that the reason that we still have live theatre, you know, the good question, why do we need it? We've got so much available now at the click of a button in our homes. We still, we want to go and see comedians. We want to go and see shows. We want to go and see musicals. And I was at a friend's daughter's school musical last night and I was so, and it was really, really good because those things aren't always good. You are not wrong. It was amazing. It was Les Mis. It was hugely ambitious and brilliant. And that gift of being in that space with all of those kids performing, all of those parents and all of us on our feet at the end. And that is a really good equivalent, though, to talk about leadership is if you're not putting your focus on that, if you're not thinking about how am I making people feel something and engage something when exactly as you said, Matt, we've got so many tools that's going to do that. some of the other comms for you, some of that content comms, then you're really missing where you need to be in leadership at the moment.

SPEAKER_01:

Maybe one of the great things about AI on this stuff, and we were talking about AI in PowerPoint and things early on, is I think so many leaders think, well, I'm preparing for this presentation, so I'll do slides. And maybe this will just absolutely force them to say, I don't need to spend my time on this. So what am I doing in prep? Maybe now I've got some more time to think about the rehearsal and the how and the emotion and the story and the metaphor and all the things we talk about.

SPEAKER_00:

So what is the gift that all this AI and technology is giving you? You know, the gift of time and space. They're literally the only two gifts the universe can offer you up. And how are you using it? I could do with both of those things. Are you... Are you caught in doom scrolling or are you really using that space to actually maximise what it is to be a human being in the 21st century, just to put a nice big, you know, drop a huge statement in there? So to pick up from our last podcast, we were talking about in terms of communication, thinking about speechcraft and storytelling. Speechcraft, we defined as the what, what do you say? Structure. Yeah, how you're structuring messages and the content, and then the how. How are you communicating it physically, using your body, energy, emotionally, Present your voice. All of those things that we at 4D are crazy passionate about and very, very good at helping you get very, very good at them. And then the second piece is storytelling, which again, that's your unique content. That's your sticky stuff, if you like. The stories that you tell, those moments that you share that are so memorable. And I think looping back to the AI point, what's really interesting is that AI won't necessarily automatically go there. You can prompt it. You can give us some really great stuff. But the thing about human beings is, you know, we have much more natural tendency to go there. We're interested in the emotive elements of life and communication. You can get a lot of help online. Absolutely. And as human beings, we are the unique story. Well, there's something important in shared experience, which is the spontaneity. which are those moments in a meeting or in a conversation or in a theatre where we know that what's happening right now has just happened right now for all of us. So somebody's asked a question, you know, a speaker's been asked a question. And in that moment, he says, Bob, it's always Bob, Bob, that really makes me think of a time that I took my family to the Cotswolds. And we know that that is unique to us. And those are the moments that, no amount of putting your slide content into where I was going to give you.

SPEAKER_01:

This is why sport is so popular still, because people are coming together. Of course, you can watch things on TV, but people want to be there having a shared experience with other people. And all spectator sport certainly is highly, highly emotional. You know, the ups and the downs of the, literally the drama of it is what captures people. It is why people still fill stadiums, despite the fact that you're Let's say your intellectual experience of an event is way superior on the television. Statistics you can see, replays you can see. What you want to do is be in the stadium having a shared experience. And we don't always think about that when we're thinking about conferences and delivering town halls.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly. Can you get them going like a, you know... My reference is having dated someone who was a Spurs fan. Sorry. Matt might just walk out of the room, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Spurs fans having

SPEAKER_00:

a bad enough time. But I tell you what I remember. I remember first going to a match and that was my, my thought was exactly that. I suddenly, as I'm now caught up in it, you know, within 10 minutes, 15 minutes, caught up in it. And I went, ah. I'm totally swept up. Okay, so would we like to, because we've been talking about becoming a really good anthropologist, because there's so much content available. Those of you who are listening, as a leader, as a team member, you can click on pretty much anything now, any talk, any kind of conference, any online videos, and you can assess pretty quickly, why is that holding me and why... Why am I swiping left or clicking stop or moving on? So are there speakers, videos, talks that we've seen recently or moments in the news with people meeting or world leaders coming together that we think that that works and here's why, or that's awkward or doesn't work and here's why. Well, before we ask that question, I'm going to rewind a little bit because Matt and I had this conversation the other day, which is, yes, we absolutely can look at speakers and certainly when we're attending conferences, we then start parallel tracking, dual tracking. We're listening to the content, but we're also observing the person and how they're behaving. But what I would say, and I've used but wisely, don't often use it at 4D, of course, Not everybody sees the world like that. And I certainly remember before this work, that's not how I saw the world. I was just watching a presentation sort of on the surface of it. But as Matt and I have talked about recently, and I think one of your coaching clients said this, once you've opened the door for somebody and showed them how to look at the world and how to look at people, for good or for bad, you can no longer look at a presentation in the same way. No,

SPEAKER_01:

you're already analysing. You're already analysing what's good and what's bad. And does that move me? And are they use that technique there? Or they put a metaphor in and that's why that's so sticky. And you can't unsee it. And you can't unsee that, which is a great thing. And I think the wonderful thing. about our tools. And I work with this individual only for a few sessions, but the tools are so simple that it offers you such easy diagnostics on how someone is also speaking and what they're using.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. So I think that's part of the joy. Before we talk about some really good speakers, part of the joy is not only for yourself in terms of your own communication skills, but you start watching other people in a very different way. And I think the world is more fascinating as a result. Definitely. And you go beyond the do I like it, don't I like it, or is it good or is it bad? And why? Yeah. Why is this working or not? So I want to mention our Prime Minister. Keir Starmer, who I do believe has had some training. He must have done, yeah. Yeah, and it's definitely improved because we were definitely saying between ourselves early on in this government presidency. We both wrote to him. Yeah, well, he wrote to the consulate and said, like, these are the three things that you need. You know, there's more energy, more inclusion and more story, more story visioning. But there's a few things that I just want to point out that he's done. I think he's got nearer his authentic self gradually. I think he's more himself. And one of the things I think that's helped him do that- It's a really simple thing. It's a really simple thing, which is take his jacket and roll his sleeves up. And if you notice the moments where he's changed how he's communicating physically through his body language- Whether or not you're doing politics. Whether this is not to do with exactly the judgment on exactly politics or content of message or decision-making, purely on the comms, That he looks much more comfortable and more relatable when he's got his sleeves right on. So there are really simple... I mean, we talk a lot about this as females. Are you wearing heels or not? You know, it changes how you... We can debate the whole thing of whether, you know, we feel we should or shouldn't and the height and levelling eye contact. There's lots in there. And it's also about how it makes you feel. Wearing a jacket versus wearing, you know, a T-shirt. And... Just for him, taking that jacket off and rolling his sleeves up, for me, kind of can anchor him in that human connection much more, which can relax some of his facial expressions and the way that he talks. So you get this knock-on effect that you can have through really simple choices.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, very simple environmental choice in that regard. I mean, you know, Johnson was interesting. I think the previous... Previous but what? Who knows? There's been so many. Because he is such a unique communicator. And in many ways, the sort of antithesis of what one would think to be a good communicator, certainly a good sort of political communicator. And I think it sort of intersected at a time where people wanted more authenticity. They wanted things not to be as polished. And I think that's what you're talking to perhaps there with Starmer as well. Just take the jacket off and you look less like a politician, but actually behave less like a politician. And I think Johnson, you know, for both good and ill, really did capture that for people. And I think the sort of... The

SPEAKER_00:

zip wire helped.

SPEAKER_01:

The zip wire, yeah. Yeah, all of that. But, you know, the hair, the tie, the slightly sense of shambolic, but also... the sense of humour that always comes out from him. I don't think he'd have been prime minister without that feeling that he elicits in people. He was probably the only politician, certainly the only politician since Thatcher, I would say, where you would use a single name for him. Boris. You just say Boris and that's enough. And that's enough. Yeah. So I think that and again, I think that is all about emotion. I think it's about the emotions that he elicited. Some of those emotions will have been very strongly anti and some of them are very strongly pro. You know, certainly, certainly, you know, as he became as he became prime minister, he won an enormous majority vote. But I think he was a very interesting example of a kind of anti-political.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, which people like.

SPEAKER_01:

Which I think people like. And, you know, we could, I'm sure, go on and talk about Trump in the same way.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. A

SPEAKER_01:

very powerful communicator, but not in the way we would normally.

SPEAKER_00:

And interestingly, again, regardless of politics and what you think about the content, exactly as you said, Bill, yes, Boris was somebody that you could watch and engage with. I would give another example, which maybe we'll come on to this stage or we'll might talk about in another podcast. It's something I'm absolutely fanatical about and Matt knows this, which is particularly around some female leaders that I've been watching recently. You know, if you think about the press secretary in the White House or, you know, the head of the EU, lots of sort of strong female leaders. When they cut out diminutive, small words, or if they cut out words like, well, I think, or basically, or just, if they cut out those words, the power that they can have while still remaining authentic and empathetic and warm and is phenomenal. And for me, that's one of the biggest things that I like working on with all leaders, often particularly female leaders. And I think it speaks to an element of the content of that we don't often talk about. And if I think about male and female speakers in particular, often we're talking about what the tone and how you're, which is all hugely important. And that one kind of structure and language piece for me also has such a phenomenal impact. One of the people that comes up for me as you say that is Angela Rayner. And again, taking the politics aside, what I really like about what she does is ground herself and talk at a pace that... while it's still very human, she's very sort of informal in many ways, and yet she... Talks at a pace that doesn't get flustered when she's asked difficult questions or doesn't feel like she's got to kind of make it fun. That's another thing, like be careful about what you add on. She's really solid and grounded and friendly. And it's such a one, I think that's a really good combination. And again, you know, regardless of what you think about what she says, just watch her communicate. She's solid. She's got a stillness to her without being stiff. So start to notice that. These aspects, there's two other politicians I want to mention, which is Wes Streeting and Peter Kyle. We have been listening to a lot of them. Yeah, so these are the UK ministers. Health and Peter Kyle is AI and technology. And I think they, again, I mean, I've listened to them more than I've watched them. But in terms of their voices and their authenticity and spontaneity, they're fluid. They know how to have conversations with people and how to listen to what's being said to them and join in the fun or the conversations. Or if there's a bit of banter about, I don't know, a previous presenter on Radio 4 saying something a bit cheeky about eating a packet of crizza, they'll do what we might do with our friends. We say, well, you're having a bit of a puff about my weight. Well, you know, being a government minister doesn't mean I'm sitting around a bit more... What we would call the yes and is I'm allowing some of the relational content to have a bit of space. And of course, we'll get to policy, but it does so much for you. And off the back of that, you have to mention Trump. You have to mention Trump because one of the first things that comes out of his mouth... always is anybody got any questions?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because basically he just wants to have the conversation, some answers and conversation. And again, regardless of politics, he's good at it and people like it.

SPEAKER_01:

I think humour as well is enormous. I think Johnson humour, Rayner humour, where you were talking to there in terms of the yes and. I think it's undervalued in people. And, you know, I think it's evolutionary reasons why humour is very powerful. But it's the relational and it's someone that you might want to spend some time with.

SPEAKER_00:

You call it the pint test, don't you?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. I mean, I think it's a big thing, you know. I think it is a thing in England. You know, would I go and have a drink with this individual? And Raina, definitely someone that you go and have a drink with, I think, could end up in a messy night. And Johnson would be the same. You're going to have... And actually famously, he's actually not brilliant one-to-one. Eye contact, he's a bit, apparently he's quite, he's much less engaging than when he's performing. But I think Trump, the humour for him is a big thing. Some of that humour manifests itself in less...

SPEAKER_00:

Generous?

SPEAKER_01:

Less generous ways, let's say. And some of it is cheeky and it's genuinely fun. And

SPEAKER_00:

it's not being frisky, I don't think. It's that human connection. I think sometimes we can think of speakers that we've almost got to have a sort of a wall or a teleprompter between us and the audience and deliver what we have to deliver.

SPEAKER_01:

That

SPEAKER_00:

can work if, you know, maybe it's a very serious and particular message where you have to get it word perfect. But usually it's better to be with the audience. It's making me think of the Cialdini. We were talking about earlier the work around influencing. And of course, the top factor of influence is liking. And you sort of forget that at your peril. And it's also a good test, isn't it, for the swipe left. You might not initially know why you like them. Now, we can help you understand that more in terms of their facial expressions, some of the language that they're using, how they're communicating, their body language, all of those things. something is telling you that you want to stay with them.

SPEAKER_01:

And the liking for Calvino, lots of things in it, personal attractiveness and all these kinds of things. But a few things he really picks out, common goals. We're all in this together. We're all of the same nation. So politicians use that all the time. Sleep's rolled up. Compliments. You're all amazing. This is an amazing country. And similarity. And I think that is where the humor sits. Most people in their conversations with friends and family, there is at least an element of fun and humor. And if you seem like some sort of weird robot, you're none of those things. And so the distance then becomes enormous.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And that connection with the audience.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I just want to pick up on something else that you said in terms of the question and answer against the sort of, I must get this all right. I work with a lot of people, as you know, who get very nervous. It tends to be something I love working on with people. And I would say most of them, when they're in Q&A, not delivering a presentation, are way more comfortable. Now you would think, why is that? here you don't know the answer yeah you should be even more nervous and yet most of the time people are less nervous because they they don't feel they've got to sort of stand and present yeah they can just respond to a question they're all amazing experts in their fields these people um and they find they find that much easier

SPEAKER_00:

yeah and that's a really good i mean that's as you know again that's sort of taking us down somewhat to another topic but that's a really really good point around as a communicator has your content become Yes. Then the people can't see the presentation. Yeah. You're like, no, no, you're the presentation. You're the presentation. Exactly. You are that. I want to go back to Trump and I want to just talk about a few things that we noticed that maybe work in a less, don't work quite as much. And a couple of things that I noticed about Trump is when you start having very repetitive gestures or Or facial expressions. That is definitely something to watch out for because then you're moving into some sort of almost like a habit or a thing that people are expecting from you. And that can start distracting. So if you're always doing the same thing, he does a thing with his hands, doesn't he, where he sort of has a sort of scale that he does. And he has a very particular mouth shape that goes into sort of almost like a tube, like a sort of rounded tube. And it gets parodied. So there's something just to be aware of where we find things that work for us, but we don't want to keep doing the same thing again and again. And I think we all have them. And I remember when I first started doing this work at 4D, being on video. And very deliberately having to watch myself back and sort of being coached to do so. And it was tough. And of course, I picked up little things that I did and probably still do sometimes that I had no idea I was doing. And once you know, you can shift them. Just free yourself from those. They can just be constraints, I guess, at times.

SPEAKER_01:

I wonder whether it's challenging with Trump because you just never quite know what things are intentional and what things are unintentional. We always talk about intention. It's the primary, probably the word we use more than anything else, not the right and wrong, but the intentionality. And I never really know whether he's doing things to be provocative, to grab attention, to create branding that is clear, or whether things are just happening and he's responding in the moment.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I think he understands the attention economy better than any politician does.

SPEAKER_00:

Reality TV.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, which reality TV will help you with.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But yeah, you never quite know whether, if you think about in Britain, some of the language around say Brexit or what have you, was really about let's repeat the same thing again and again and again and make sure that even people who pay no attention whatsoever to the news get it. So you don't quite know whether what Trump is doing is he's created certain expressions and certain ways of being because he knows that maybe most American people will only catch a tiny bit of news.

SPEAKER_00:

It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01:

So it doesn't matter. And all they see is a gesture which is very powerful.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's a good point. You've really made me think of something that sort of brings back to the core of our topic, which of the back of the presidential election in the States, and there's been not a huge amount, but the glimmerings of some sort of unpacking of what happened with the Democrats. And there's certainly been some talk around Kamala Harris being... Maybe too cautious or too polished. And that's partly because of where she was positioned politically as the VP to Joe Biden. And there are various reasons for that. But also, is there something about the age that we're in and the shift that sort of already happened in terms of how to communicate? What it really makes me think, again, going back to where we started about becoming a really, really great communicator. is that we don't mean by that becoming a communicator that from perhaps 20, 30 years ago where you were able to get really polished. Yeah. And everybody has to be the same. And everybody has to be the same. It's a bit like we talk about with theatre. The award-winning, amazing actors are the ones where you cannot see the technique. It looks like it's happening and it's real and it's right now. And that's what we're talking about with being a great communicator, that you take all these techniques. You know how to structure. You know how to do, you know, one, two, three, ABC, your presence. You know how to stand up and speak with energy, with great gestures and facial expressions and intention so that that just becomes second just, that becomes second nature. And you play to your strengths. And fully integrated in four dimensions, physically, emotionally, intellectually and intentionally, that means whatever happens, you are absolutely anchored in the present moment. I mean, that's the real skill. And it sounds huge. And of course, in many ways it is. And you can teach it. People don't realise that you can learn this.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, I think what you can't necessarily... Absolutely, yeah. As I said, it's not right and wrong, it's intentionality. And if you can bring all these things together and you can be absolutely the best version of you, and that will almost certainly mean you stretch what you is, but you don't need to become Obama or Trump or whomever. I would

SPEAKER_00:

also say in terms of how we teach the work that we do, absolutely, it's about you and it's about your strengths and it's about the stretch. It is also, and some people find this quite challenging, it is also about the flex and flexion. in terms of how you need to show up and that again that is what great communicators do they'll have different audiences in front of them different messages to deliver and we are not one thing as human beings and we are not one thing as communicators and staying awake to the context staying awake to the context and really I mean it's so often we talk about this is not about what you know it's about what your audience need and you have plenty of range and stretch within you to adapt your communication style and the wonderful thing about 4D tools is is that they help you do that very very quickly and still say choose to yourself as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Maybe that's why there's an American audience which really enjoys watching Trump speak because he isn't blinding you with very complicated information. He is sitting there more Q&A. It does feel more like a conversation. Yeah, maybe that's just... broken the mold in a way. And that mold will shape in a different way with the next generation of leaders.

SPEAKER_00:

But it's what elements can we learn?

SPEAKER_01:

What elements can we learn from? What elements do we not want to necessarily keep? But he's offered a very interesting alternative model. Yeah. Again, regardless of the politics, but as a communication kind of anthropologist.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly. And again, we will keep saying regardless of your politics. And he is a very good example of kind of less is more, which we say all the time in the room, get all of those details out. Well, we said recently, people can't take it in. Yeah, get the hearts before you get the mind.

SPEAKER_01:

It's not easy. We make the mistakes ourselves. Everyone does it because you know a lot. You want to share a lot. Like you think that if I give people more information, that will click the light bulb. It's not easy to do. It's not easy to do, but it's, and yet we know it when we see it ourselves. It's

SPEAKER_00:

so true, isn't it? Because we're taught in school, you know, no more, no more. And then suddenly you hit a point and you'll say, yeah, so they're saying it. Yeah. Very good. So I think it's probably time for us to have some lunch. Let's talk more. So thank you for, yes, part two of the podcast on letting us share our passions. We're great communication. Become a great communicator. It's the gift that will give you a better experience, whether it's a meeting or a presentation or a difficult conversation. And boy, is it the gift that you can give to other people. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00:

thank you so much for listening to this episode of the 40 human being podcast we hope you enjoyed the show do take on board some of the insights tools and tips because every time that you try something new to get back to choice you are making a vote for the you that you want to become and i i love that phrase pen i do too and please do share this episode with somebody that you know would really benefit from the lessons and learnings we've been chatting about today and of And of course, if you're interested in more from 4D Human Being, do get in touch. We run workshops, trainings, online, in-person, conference events and keynotes. We've got the 4D On Demand platform for your whole organisation. And we do have a free Essentials membership where anybody can sign up for absolutely free to access some of our insights, tools and tips. So do get in touch with us if you'd like to hear more. We cannot wait to hear from you and to carry on the conversation.